Date: 6/28/2002 10:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 46320
It is terrible what happened to her. I agree with you, she probably believes in God now. Wonderful post. Be Good...  |
Date: 6/28/2002 10:34:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Thank you AmicanGirl..it was tragic for sure..no one, deserves that!  |
Date: 6/28/2002 10:43:00 AM
From Authorid: 15228
What a great article. thank you for posting this..No one deserves to die the way those woman did..Wasn't his daughter only 19 years old at the time?  |
Date: 6/28/2002 12:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
Thi is one of the most moving articles I have ever read, makes you wonder. How tragic and sad that these people had to die this way. I knew that the remians of Mrs. O'Hair were found but was not aware that other family members were also killed. This is just to sad.... Thanks for posting this, perhaps there is a lesson in it.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 12:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 609
OMG What a horrible thing to have happen to this family but worse yet was what her son wrote...if that is what christianiaty is all about then you all can keep it. I personaly will stick to loving others and not speak ill of the dead.I wouldnt want to be in heaven with people like that.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 12:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
I stand beside Phe in this one...... I agree with her words completely.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 12:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Applause to Phe! I agree. I stand with Phe & Sur5r.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 1:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Gotta stand by Phe on this one.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 1:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
I have never read this before. I knew she died, I just didnt know how she died. AND by some of the comments, well forget it, I just dont know what to say about it, may God have mercy on all.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 1:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 30742
Pammie, Very sad and hearbreaking. One entry in her diary read, " I just wish someone loved me". God loved her so much, he wanted her to love him, but by her choice she hated what God stood for, God was all love, but God will never force his love on anyone. My entire family are atheist. They continue in their atheism. Thank God I opened my heart to his love. Humans are so fickle. I thank God that I have his love for all eternity. God Bless...  |
Date: 6/28/2002 1:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
ahhh, but ms. morality, I experienced that Christian "love" for over 40 years; and I witness this so-called brand of "love" from Christians every day. NO THANKS! There are a very FEW christians who exibit a real, genuine, and truthful LOVE. I see it reflected in their LIVES, and in their manner, and in their speech.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 2:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
It is true....not all Christians are loving...some can be very hateful....so we can't generalize that it is all loving.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 4:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
Christians should emmulate their savious Christ Jesus but they often do not. The scriptures tell us that "You would know them by the fruits they produce" If what everyone here is saying about Christians is true then maybe what they worship is in reality is Satan and dont even know it. What I got out of this story is that her beliefs, actions and behaviours may have been her ultimate downfall. She was a sad lonely old woman. Her son is suggesting that she was that way because of what she believed. (At least thats my understanding) And that she had no hope.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 6:12:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
PamyJo that is what I got out of it also.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 6:14:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Phe..maybe I am dense tonight, but what did he say so terrible?  |
Date: 6/28/2002 6:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
Savanah, I went back to the web site that you gleaned this information from and read a little more into it. Seems that the atheists groups that his mother was associated with dislike him intensly. There is no love lost between the two. He brought out that they even stole from his mother after her death as did she from even her own groups. I believe that what he wrote shows at least to me that he, although obviously in pain from loosing three close members of his family needed to take a stand against what his mother stood for. Her life style was deplorable according to his own words. She had complete control over his younger brother and his daughter yet he stated that he did not feel that she deserved to die the way that she did. Even though I do not agree with his religious views I believe that it took courage to speak out the way that he did. And I do believe that he is suffering from the loss of his family.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 7:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 15228
To bad atheists are all so judgemental, being a christian doesn't mean we can even begin to reach perfection, we should strive for it and most of the time fall short. Unlike atheists, Christians have a lot to live up to and are judged all the time...Which is the harder road??  |
Date: 6/28/2002 8:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
I understand your point Pam and I se what you're saying. It i just a shame that this woman pent her entire life battling God and look how it ended....it's all very sad..she was alone and unhappy.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 8:06:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Sure seems that way Kelly, especialy here lately. Christians are beng accused of doing exactly what all the ahteist are doing and blantly doing I might add.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 10:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Oh, please....Atheists are no more judgemental than Christians, it's not a competition. Some people are judgemental....it does not always have to because of a belief system.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 11:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 609
Sorry it took me so long to come back here to answer you Savanah, I was packing. What I feel is so aweful is all of what he said in the lower part, making it sound as if she and the rest of the family deserved that for their beiefs. I hardly think believing in God would have prevented such a thing once it was already in the works. I think what upsets me most is to see a son talk that way, you might say or think its in love but I see disrespect. Im assuming this story was all over the news in the states cause I havnt heard of it till now by your posting. It is sad. But to say 'if they only believed in God' would have changed little. What there are no monsters in God's creation? Look at the pastors right now, are they not monsters and they have been protected and permitted to be in contact with more children. I just cant believe a supposed 'loving' christian would say things like that and show disrespect to his mother by speaking in that way, dosnt the bible teach to respect your elders and parents?? My point is that there are bad non-christians just as their are bad christians. And the only differance is that thoes who are not christian do not get publicly ousted AFTER the fact, no one can turn around and say 'oh they were not really non christian'. If God is truely merciful God will take this man aside in time and teach him what 'mearcy' is. This is my opnion and nothing more so take it as that, there is little value to it. Honestly tho if this son is showing the true christian spirit that should be emulated then I rather be a sinner, better to not live at all then be in heaven for enternity with messed up ethics.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 11:09:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Phe I see what ur saying, but doesn't the same hold true about his mothr..In time, God, did take the mother aside and teach her what mercy is..or her lack of mercy. I dont know the answers anymore than most people do. I agree there ar non-christians that claim to be christians and they can sometimes be fanatical, but christianity should not be jusged as a whole based on these few. Thanks for your response. Hugs,  |
Date: 6/28/2002 11:11:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
God loved Madalyn O'Hair jut a much as He loves anyone of us..He gives us all the same opportunity...puts the ball in our court...so to speak.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 11:12:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
But I do feel that had she believed in God, she would have made different decisions and choices in her life...which may have rsulted in her still being alive.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 11:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
What? How could their religious beliefs have made a difference? What about Christians who are kidnapped and killed? What is the reasoning for their horrendous deaths?  |
Date: 6/28/2002 11:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Bare with me, I am very tired right nowhe had no conscience and there fore hired someone of a bad character with the intent of pushing him harder with little pay, I am sure that created resentment on his part which led to his brutal acts. DO I believe God snet thi man to kill this woman so brutaly, no, not in the least. I don't believe God is that way AT ALL!. God, is a god of love and is not vendicive! we just reap what we sew is all. Does that make any sense?  |
Date: 6/28/2002 11:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 609
First any choice in life could have led to a different outcome for anyone...this is part of a chaos theory. Second, I never understood how ppl can say 'God loved them despite..' first NO ONE can claim to know what God may or may not think, second to say God loved then You say Christianity should not be judged by a few, I agree just as other religions should be the same. What I see tho is a post written by a son being put on display and the emphisis being him as a christian and saying basically that if his mother believed in God it wouldnt have happened. Thats just foolish, if you follow the bible to the letter God has left us to our own devices based on a conversation with Satan, so I dont see how her beliefe could have helped even at the end. I agree if your saying that maybe had her life been lived differently things might have been different, but this dosnt just come from god. As to her diary, how horrid that someone would share that. But since it is her private thought then no one knows what she was thinking or what influanced her to write that. I was raised in a Christian religion and I left it, Ive questioned my choice for one reason alone, and that is that my family now ostracises me, but I wont be bribed to go against my heart just as they wouldnt be bribed out of their faith. All I know is that there was the same hypicoricy shown in that faith, the same 'I love you, BUT', the same men claiming to speak for God. The real irony is how many horrible events in history were caused by 'Christians only trying to keep Gods word'. Like I said if the conditional love and constant reformation to rules is a product of Christianity I would rather choose any other beliefe then that. I am going to bed now but Ill pop back tomorrow. I just want to be clear that these are my opinions and Im not attacking anyone...well maybe this son just a bit because Im just shocked that someone would say that about his dead mother.  |
Date: 6/28/2002 11:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 609
Just wanna quickly add....I know a few ppl who are christians who hire convicts, one of them pays little but is very kind. The other pays them really low and is a slave driver.....I dont know but seems to me it could happen to anyone in this position at the same time dosnt the bible teach to treat others well...like tax collectors, and to give people a chance. I think reality is bad is bad...no matter where or what it is in,, there is no real pure good except what we try and achieve. mmmm tired...making less sense now lol.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:04:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Phe I like to look at God in this manner. He is just like you and me. I don't know if u have kids or not, but I do. I love them both unconditionally, just like God loves me and them and you. Do I forsake my kids because they do wrong..NO..I love them unconditionally no matter what they do. But we all do have a patience limit and I believe God dose too...somewhere in the bible, it says that even God will try with you for so long, gving you every chance in the world, but will eventually give up. Even s a parent, when your child does wong, you punish them so they may learn, I do believe that God does chatise for the same reasons. Now of course, these are my on personal beliefs developed thgough experiences and over the years. There is also a lot of contrversy over predestination and some people think that God chooses whow will be savd and who wont. I don't believe that either..how unfair would that be?? I believe that what it means is that God knows your whole life before you do, He knows what choices and decsions you will make and wether or not you will choose His son as yur savior. It says he knew you befor you were ever in the womb..He knew your whole life and everything you will do. Therefore, He know who will answer His call and who wont. Maybe I am wrong in this interpertation, but it's wat I believe, otherwise God wudn't be just or fair, not giving everyone the same equally opportunity to accept His call. If I am starting to babble, I am sorry, it is getting awful late and I need tooth picks for my eyes..LOL  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:06:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Does any of that have anything to do with what you said^^^^^^  |
Date: 6/29/2002 5:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 11211
I had been keeping up with this family from the news etc....I agree with you Savanah Rose on all that you said in this post....your comments. It's so sad that one who fought so hard to get prayer out of school....and fought against God, to try to get others to believe that he doesn't exist....needed him so badly in the final hours of her life. I really hope she and the others found him...called out to him for mercy....He is a loving God, and it's his will that not one should perish....Jesus freely gave his life for this woman, just as he did for you and I....to pay for our sins....to take them upon himself, to bear the punishment, the heavy cross...so we wouldn't have too....It's up to us to accept that wonderful gift of love....just as you said...the ball is in our court....We choose...He don't force himself upon us....but I just want to say...he is a loving God, and he puts his love within our hearts...he gives us love that we didn't know existed...it's pure and so sweet...once you have experienced his love and felt the peace in your heart that only he can give....there is nothing else in this world that can replace it....nothing can compare to the love of our wonderful God. I'm sorry this is such a long comment....It just stirred my heart as I read the story again, and your comments. Thank You for posting this for all to read...and I send you all, my love always....  |
Date: 6/29/2002 6:35:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Thank you White Dove..Yes our God is an amazing God! Regardless of Mrs. O'Hair's lifestyle for all those many years, if she had called out to Him at the end and asked for forgiveness, yes even, she would have been forgiven...Now that IS A GOD OF LOVE AND MERCY!!!!! Much Love hun,  |
Date: 6/29/2002 8:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 609
Ok well I reread my comments last night and they were not as clear as I could have been, I was tired. I do have a child and I love her unconditionally, no matter what I would never stop loving her and my love is not conditional. I am not disagreeing with what you said about God's love, tho my beliefs are very different now, I did have a basis in a 'christian' religion. You said tho if she called out to him she would have been forgiven, even if she was forgiven it would not have spared her the pain before her death. I think worse then her death was the disrespect her son showed to her after the fact, practically saying she deserved it. Im glad there is no prayer in school, if there was I would never put my child in one. Prayer is supposed to be private, a personal conversation with your diety, when you force prayer like forcing someone to run in gym class, then you remove the importance of it. God and most Christian love is totaly conditional and I think that is horrible, 'I love you but' ,'Ill love you IF..' Im just saying thoes who are christian Im sure find comfort and strenght in this article, I personaly find shock, disgust, and disappointment. Its like I said to my father, 'if these are the conditions God's promises when we die then I dont want to be there.' In the end its my heart that guides me. If God created my heart and me then what feels right in my heart can't be wrong can it.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 8:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 15394
I find it disgusting that one would think that if she were only a christian this wouldn't have happened... if she was murdured because of her fight to remove prayer from schools, that is as sick and fanatical as anything else disgusting in this world... so if only she were christian this wouldn't have happened, is just as fanatical! See the reasoning here? If she believed like the fanatics this wouldnt' have happened? gosh how horrible ... we are free free freee to believe what we want and should be able to do so without threat of torture and death... it goes both ways.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 9:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
William Murray is an evangelist huckster out to make a buck (millions, actually). He saw a way to do it, and by golly it sure is a workin' for him. *wink* He KNEW......he KNOWS that the believers eat this kind of story up! KNOWS IT. oh, yes, for many years I have maintained THIS: If I were a person who had no morals, no integrity and NO conscience, I would most certainly go into the RELIGION business. I would make a killing. whoooohooo! don't you doubt it either. As for all the stories about how the "atheists" did this and that....hehehe....why not add that to the pot? Gets 'em all fired up and FEEDS the FANTASIES of the believers. Makes them look down their noses, and scoff : "See! I told ya so! she shore 'nuff got what wus a commin' to her!" and all kinds of crazy NON-THINKING propaganda. I can say one thing for sure: No matter how ever it happens or when it happens....ever; when I am gone, I do not wish someone to stand over my grave and say something stupid like "I sure hope she finally realized the "truth" and ask God for forgiveness". WILL NOT HAPPEN! From what I have read of Ms O'Hair, I would bet the farm on THAT same sentiments for her as well. Her son probably couldn't drive a milk wagon for a living in reality; but has found a way to become famous and ride his mother's fame and 'notoriety', and the public interest, all the way to that great GREEN $$$$glory$$$$in the sky. *wink*  |
Date: 6/29/2002 9:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
Anyone can Love, anyone can hate...not just Xtians.....This is Sad........but I see nothing wrong in what this man has wrote  |
Date: 6/29/2002 9:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Furthermore, I would bet my life, which I hold so dear, that those people who murdered O'Hair were NOT atheists. They were religious fruitcakes who 1st of all WANTED her dead, and wanted to silence her, and perhaps loot anything she had. You have to consider where she lived and how the atmosphere is in that area is. Also, consider all the death threats she got from religious fanatics. Consider the man who brought the case (regarding the "under God" in the Pledge of Alegience) out in California; he has recieved death threats by religious nutcases. Ms. O'Hair scoffed at or rather blew off these death threats. NOT SMART! If I took a very active role in my anti-religion stance, I sure would take extreme precautions to guard against those who would kill me whilst waving a banner in the name of "God". Good Grief; just look at the medical/abortion doctors who have been killed by these religious nuts. Oh, yeah, THIS IS REAL; this is a FACT of life. There are those (as witnessed on 9/11) who will die for their GODS, and take out anyone who goes against them.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 10:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
IT amazes me that a christian can not make money unless they are hanging on some ones shirt tail or that they are the ones that did this killing. Cathrine your beginning to frighten me with your way of talking about the christiain sect, its this kind of talking that causes people to go over board. I see nothing wrong that this man said.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 10:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 160
Jungabel, I didn't read where he said that she would not have been murdered if she were a christian, what I read and understood was that he (The Father, brother and son of murder victims) hoped and wondered if they prayed to Christ for mercy before they were killed. And I dont think that he was out to make money as was stated, If you go back to the original web site you can read for yourself how her atheist friends were making money. Ms. O'Hair even stole from her own organization. I think the suggestion there is that she had no christian morals that kept her from doing despicable things. Not that people who are christain have not done even more despicable things. The son even wrote that she had animals statues copulating in her home. She had compete mind control over her younger son and grandaughter. Maybe the suggestion is that you live by the sword you may just die by it. Her own greed and lack of ethics and morals may have been her undoing.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 10:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 160
The people that killed her Catherine were her employees, they were atheists. And what motivated them was greed. The one that worked for her was her office manager and he stole some 55K from her and was already under investigation. While they were in captivity they (The women) were bound and the younger woman was raped repeatedly. The son was driven around taking money from various places including valuable coins. The motive was robbery from the start but she employed ex-cons that had less scruples than she did. Would you let someone like that in your home or business to work for you?  |
Date: 6/29/2002 10:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 17516
Why was it posted in the religious section? When one posts in this section, the following paragraph is written clearly at the top of the story form: "Our purpose for the religious section is to provide a forum so you can share your religious beliefs and/or the positive effects your experiences has had in your daily life." Where does this post the author's religious beliefs and/or the positive effects it's had in her life? USM has a section called In The News. This should have been posted there.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 10:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 17516
For the most part, the post seems to be informational. The author implies that atheists don't have morals in a few places, but he tempers this by referring to specific people only. Perhaps his mother did embrace an "anything goes" philosophy. I don't know enough about her to know if this is true. However, the leap shouldn't be made, and I don't think it has here, that ALL atheists are immoral.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 10:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 17516
The thing about this post that disturbed me the most was the last sentence by the author. With text, it's difficult to know how someone sounds when they say something, but when the author states "I bet Ms O'Hair believes in God now" it sound like gloating. I certainly hope that's not the case.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 11:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 23610
Awwww...Karma Killer, always the voice of reason and clear thinking rather than emotional passive agressiveness. I like your style.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 11:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
This is a VERY GOOD message for Xtians to think about there lost lovedones BEFORE they pass on...what gets me...."which no one seems to see, or are turning a blind eye to" is the fact that some of the replies has no place in religion....makes you ask some questions.......  |
Date: 6/29/2002 11:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
Religous section I should say  |
Date: 6/29/2002 11:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 19092
I must say that there are bits and pieces within everyones replies that I tend to agree with. I do ask however, following up on what Sixgun said, that we all need to remember what section of USM this is. I know that it has been a hard week for all faiths with the religious debates that have been posted, the pledge ruling, and other "hot" topics. Emotions are running high, my own included, (except for Karma, always the voice of reason wothout injecting emotion). Lets all try and respect the rules here, be more respectful of our other USM members, their beliefs, faiths, and Gods. It's been a very challenging week and I have failed several times with respect to displaying the love my God has declared. The best part of this post for me was seeing a reply from my friend WhiteDove who I have missed at USM. May God bless us all and forgive my shortcomings...  |
Date: 6/29/2002 11:40:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Thank you six gun, exactly it does belong in the religious sction as aI was just posting information that I found interesting adn wanted to share, not necessarily debated...Although I don't mind the debates at all..everyone is entitled to varying opinions. I also see nothing wrong with what this man said and the y were NOT killed by christian fanatics as pamyjo as clearly pointed out...she and I have both done the research. Her killers, were in fact, ATHIEST!!  |
Date: 6/29/2002 11:43:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Amen King...very well said and yes, White Dove is breath of fresh air to us all...Thank God for her, and for you and all the people like you. Hugs,  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:15:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
The man responsible for these brutal killings, (David Waters) was in fact and ex-con..He had originally stolen $54,000 from O'Hair's American Atheist Organization while working there as an Office Manager.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
Was I involved in a fight and didn't even know it? I swear I am innocent, I tell ya' Innocent to the bone! Karma, **Waves white peace lillies* Over here. Sorry, I didn't look to see what section this was in before spouting off. Just trying to keep the facts straight.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
yep PamyJo, it all your fault. You've corrupted everyone. Look what you did to BCAR, St. Pete, and myself. Once three good men, now just part of your collection. But that's OK, as long as I'm still your favorite...you'll always be mine.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
King, you know that little corner of the boys room that I have to drag you off to by the ear. Well I am going to have it bronzed and dedicated to you.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
Savanah Rose: Bet you didnt know when you started this that it would become a hot topic. I see a man who is saddened by the fact that he lost trhee members of his immediate family. Sad that he could never find ground to meet them on and now it is to late.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
You're right Pamyjo, I didn't expect all of this...but the comments have been very interesting to see..sheds a lot of insight.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 12:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
I know that spot well PamyJo, its my second home...It is sad what happened to this family. The world is so full of sadness and destruction. Can I go to my "Happy Place" for a little while Pamy??  |
Date: 6/29/2002 3:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
No, sixgun, I didnt miss it. NONE of the people that have come in here to debate SHOULD have come in here to debate. They know it, we know and the admins know it, but its kind of like an I DONT care attitude! oh well, I hate to see the post get deleted as its very informative, however S.Rose, WHEN ever anyone came in here with snide or insulting remarks, you should have deleted them and NOT encouraged this to go on in this section. AND not to delete because they dont agree, but to delete as THIS IS NOT the debate section. Hon, you have posted some really good stuff lately, and I'm sure we dont want this section closed down, so try the debate or if you dont want to debate, the question and discussion is always good as there too, you will still have the power to delete. Good post.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 3:25:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Good advice FB. I will remember it Actually, I had no clue it would turn into a debate. Live and learn. Thanks hun,  |
Date: 6/29/2002 4:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
What am I missing, why cant people express their ideas and not worry about getting the delete button aimed at them.  |
Date: 6/29/2002 4:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
King, you know you're putty in my hands.  |
Date: 7/2/2002 6:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 10733
I have to agree with king here.. this seems to have become more of a debate than a religious post.. lets settle down a bit. :-)  |
Date: 7/2/2002 8:31:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 29928
Frist and foremost, I am firm believer in Freedom of Speech, second, veryone is entitled to their own opinion, so I wont be deleting any comments.  |