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Social Death: The Practice of Disfellowshipping/Shunning - Lady Lee

  Author:  55536  Category:(Debate) Created:(7/11/2002 2:45:00 PM)
This post has been Viewed (4808 times)

Many societies establish rules or norms for inclusion in their membership. Adherence to the established norms permits full membership in the group. However, failure to follow those norms, or deviance from those norms, results in sanctions, discipline or expulsion from the group. In some religious groups an extreme form of sanction is the act of excommunication, a type of social death for the deviant member. One religious group that practices this form of expulsion is the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Witness practice of disfellowshipping errant members is a form of social death to the member who is disfellowshipped as well as to family and friends of that person.

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In all known societies, social norms or rules are developped to define who is to be included in the group. Rules of behavior are accepted as legitimate by the members of the group. Pressure is placed on group members to conform to the norms of the group. This is the process of social control (Napier, 1981). Sanctions are placed on members of the group who do not conform to the norms. Napier (1981) states that "any member who does not adhere will be seen as a threat... and efforts will be made to induce him or her to return to the group procedures." For example, in human society the norm has been established that it is wrong to murder. Laws are enacted to inform everyone what the norm is. Pressure in the form of threats of punishment by means of fines and/or imprisonment, is placed upon all members of society. Those who fail to heed the warnings and commit murder are caught, tried and if found guilty, placed in jail, and excluded from society.

To continue as members of the group individuals must accept the group norms or suffer the consequences. Susan Opotow (1990), states that exclusion "occurs when individuals or groups are perceived as outside the boundary in which moral values, rules, and considerations of fairness apply. Those who are morally excluded are perceived as nonentities, expendable, or undeserving." Being excluded from the group then, allows continuing members to view the excluded one as different and therefore not deserving of normal participation in the group's activities.

Various religious groups practice forms of exclusion for those deemed to behave in ways that do not conform to the norms of the religious group. As far back as 1640 the Catholic Church has excommunicated errant church members (Capps, 1979) and in 1908 the Old Order Mennonite community practiced excommunication (Dreidger, 1979). The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states,

"Excommunication in its most general sense is the deliberate act whereby a group denies the privileges of its membership to those who were once members in good standing... Excommunication came in the Christain era to refer to an act of exclusion by which a religious community denies to offenders the sacraments, congregational worship, and possibly social contact of any kind." (Bromiley, 1979).

Historically, religious communities have practiced some form of exclusion. The community "claims the right to protect itself against nonconforming members... In a religious setting this right has often been reinforced by the belief that the sanction affects one's standing before God, inasmuch as it entails being cut off from the community of the saved." (Eliade, 1987). Those who are cut off lose basic rights in the church. They are denied any role in receiving or administering any of the sacraments. (Opotow, 1990). Eliade (1987) states that minor exclusions may involve being left out of "mainstream activities" while in more serious degrees of exclusion there is a "stripping of identity ...along with various restrictions placed on the person's behavior and freedom of movement." The most severe form of exclusion would involve "forced exile". This forced exile is a form of social death because the excluded person is cut off from the support, care and spiritual life of the religious community.

One rationale for religious exclusion is based in the belief that the sacred texts and rituals must be kept in a pure state free from spiritual contamination from external beliefs. For the religious community to survive their distinctive beliefs must be reinforced and protected. Eliade (1987) maintains that the smaller the religious group, such as the Amish, Mennonite and Hutterite communities, the greater their need to protect their beliefs and therefore the greater reliance on expulsion as a means of social control. The Jehovah's Witnesses also practice this form of social death on errant members.

To better understand the impact of expulsion on the individual we need to look at the inclusionary processes among some of these groups. Lofland (1966) presents a 7 step model of conversion to help us understand why and how individuals get involved in some of the smaller religious communities. An initial disposition towards religious conversion must involve a perceived discrepancy between the present spiritual condition and the desired one. These "pre-converts felt themselves frustrated in their various aspirations" (Lofland, 1966). In the second step the pre-convert, although disillusioned with the present situation, continues to look to religion as a source of resolution to problems.

Thirdly, the pre-convert actively seeks a religious viewpoint that provided answers to unresolved questions. These first three steps are predispositions to religious conversion according to Lofland (1966). The reality that religious converts did not find comfort in their past religions and then left to search for another source of spiritual comfort is significant to their inclusion and later exclusion from the new religious community.

The fourth step requires that the individual reach a turning point where "circumcstances in which old obligations and lines of action had diminished, and new involvements had become desirable and possible." (Lofland, 1966). It is at this point that the individual is vulnerable to contact with individuals from the new religious community. Usually, the convert meets one person from the new community and a friendship is formed. It is the friendship with the new person that seems necessary "to bridge the gap between first exposure to the message and coming to accept the truth" (Lofland, 1966).

Since ties to the old community had already been severed the new friendship often met a need for companionship without the censure of old friends. If the situation arose that old friends questionned the new spiritual community the pre-converts were thrown into intense emotional strain". If the old friendship withstood the search for spiritual comfort by the potential convert, then conversion was generally aborted. If however, the old friend caused too much strain for the convert, the new relationships would take precidence over the old. Usually though, most converts were "unintegrated into any network ... that for the most part they could simply fall out of society virtually unnoticed." (Lofland, 1966).

At this point, the new converts began to get more seriously involved in the new religious community. Meeting attendance increases, fellowship with other community members increases, and a re-organization of the converts' lives conclude the conversion process (Lofland, 1966). By the time the individual has fully converted to the new religious community, there are few, if any, emotional connections to the past life. The new life revolves totally around acceptance of the new religious community and its norms.

According to Ms S. D, who was an active member of the Jehovah's Witnesses for 17 years, the work of bringing new converts into the community follows Lofland's model quite closely. Part of the work that she was engaged in involved going from door-to-door looking for prospective converts. They would frequently find individuals who were experiencing many difficulties in their present life and had few resources to assist them in dealing with their problems. She recounted one story where a family was contacted that had no furniture. The children were sleeping on matresses on the floor. The Witnesses who made the contact arranged for the family to get basic furniture for their apartment. Regular contact was kept with the family in the guise of baby-sitting, providing transportation, and material goods. The family was requested to participate in weekly Bible study sessions and to attend weekly meetings in the Kingdom Hall, the meeting place for Jehovah's Witnesses. Weekly meetings were slowly extended to three times per week and the family was encouraged to participate in searching for new converts. Mrs. D said that within six months Jehovah's Witnesses expect most new converts to be fully integrated into the community.

Prospective members are warned that contacts outside of the religion will try to disuade them from converting. Scripture is heavily used to encourage them to avoid dealings with non-Witnesses. Eventually the individuals drop all association with outsiders and new relationships are formed within the community. (Mrs. D., 1993). This separateness from people who are outside thw Witness community contributes greatly to the isolation that the disfellowshipped person experiences when excluded from the Witnesses, as we shall see later.

Witnesses are expected to live a highly moral, clean life. Scriptural warnings are used to encourage Witnesses to "protect the congregation from contamination" (Watchtower, 1988b; Watchtower, 1991a). Heavy sanctions are routinely used to discipline wrong-doers. Penton (1985) states that judicial committees of three elders were set up to fulfill "the role of judge, jury and prosecution of the accused".

Mrs. D. talks about her disfellowshipping eight years ago. She stated that she met with three elders from the congregation she was associated with. They questionned her on the alleged wrong-doing. They did not ask why she had acted in the way that she had and did not question her emotional state or some contradictory remarks she had made. At the end of a two hour interview she was told that she would be disfellowshipped from the congregation and was given thirty days to appeal the decision. Due to her emotional state at the time she decided not to appeal. An announcement was made at the next congregational meeting informing everyone that she was disfellowshipped and warnings were given for members to not associate with her. (Mrs. D., 1993).

The Witnesses' rationale for disfellowshipping wrong-doers is based on scriptural texts such as I Corintians 5:6-8 which states:

"do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump? Clear away the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, according as you are free from ferment... Consequently let us keep the festival, not with the old leaven, neither with leaven of badness and wickedness, but with unfermented cakes of sincerity and truth"

and Numbers 15:30-31 which states:

"But the soul that does something deliberately, whether he is a native or an alien resident, he speaking abusively of Jehovah, in that case that soul must be cut off from among his people. Because it is Jehovah's word that he has despised and his commandment that he has broken, that soul should be cut off without fail. His own error is upon him."

Witnesses believe that the only way to keep the congregation clean is to remove sinners from among them. (Watchtower, 1988a; 1988b; 1991a; 1992). The Apr. 15, 1991a Watchtower states, "Expelling him would prevent his wickedness from dishonoring both God and His people. The severe discipline of being disfellowshipped might also shock him to his senses and instill in him and the congregation due fear of God". By removing him from the congregation there would be little possibility for others to follow his lead.

To further protect the congregation members are warned not to fellowship with the dissociated member. Again scriptural references are used to encourage the shunning of the ex-member. I Corinthians 5:11 states:

...quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolator or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner not even eating with such a man.

The disfellowshipped person is no longer welcome at the homes of other Witnesses and can no longer participate in the celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal (Easter). The scripture at II John 9-11 is used to extend the ostracism. it states:

Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God....If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

Mrs. D. states that these scriptures have encouraged her friends and family to shun her. Old friends cross the street or look away if they see her. She has not been invited to family weddings or other gatherings. Her mother who is also a Jehovah's Witness does not call even when it was know that she was having major surgery. Her family is not permitted to pray for her and when she dies she will not be allowed to have a Witness funeral. If she were to attend a meeting she knows she will be shunned.

Although Mrs. D. realizes that other Witnesses are bound by the norms established by the Witnesses, she states that what made the disfellowshipping even more difficult was that as a Witness she was encouraged not to have friends outside the Witness community. As a result of the lack of social support from the outside and the shunning from the Witnesses themselves she was left in a position of no social support whatsoever. There was no one she could discuss this matter with. Contributing to this problem was that even other ex-Witnesses could not be contacted. There was no way of knowing who else may have been disfellowshipped and of forming friendships with them.

Mrs. D. says, "although the actual act of disfellowshipment before the elders in the congregation was difficult, the practice of it caused me to become severely depressed. Not only did I have my original problem which I felt very shamed about, I had been tried and found guilty. My guilt had been announced to all my friends without any details. My entire life disappeared before my eyes and there was nothing I could do to stop it. I lost eveything, my friends, my family, my children, my home, even my identity. I had been a respected member of the Witnesses, an elder's wife. I gave much of my time to Witness activites, meetings, preaching, conducting Bible studies with interested persons. I was the Sign Language interpreter for the a deaf congregation and taught sign language courses to other Witnesses. By the time they were finished, I didn't know who I was anymore. I had to stop and build a new life for myself with no support from any one that I knew. It was very hard."

It seems that for the disfellowshipped person the cutting off is so severe that the person must grieve the loss of friends, a social support system, the religious community, family as well as their own spiritual life and identity in the community, a complete sense of social death.

Mrs. D. also commented on the experience of being a Witness and shunning another member who had been disfellowshipped. "There was a sense of loss, a mourning that we went through. We rarely spoke of that person. Seeing them on the street would trigger a sense of sadness over losing a good friend. However, to talk to that person meant risking our own good standing in the congregation. Few ever tried." The experience of disfellowshipping a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a form of social death not only to the disfellowshipped person but also to the friends and family of that person.

All societies establish norms for both the inclusion and exclusion of its members. Members are made aware of the sanctions placed on various unacceptable behaviors. In religious communities serious failure to obey the established norms can lead to excommunication. A severe form of excommunication practiced by Jehovah's Witnesses is called disfellowshipping. Witnesses maintain that the practice of disfellowshipping is scriptural sound and necessary to protect the congregation and their beliefs and to discipline the errant member. The practice involves refusal to talk to or meet with disfellowshipped members. The disfellowshipped member experiences a loss of family and friends, community support, as well as a loss of identity.

The inclusionary practice of cutting themselves off from contact from non-Witnesses compounds the lack of support that is available to them after being disfellowshipped. Not only have they lost contact with past friends, they now lose contact with their present life. The total loss of support, family, friends and identity results in a social death for the individual.

--------------------------

Copyright 1994: Lee Marsh

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Date: 7/11/2002 3:09:00 PM  From Authorid: 55376    Joe Dorkowski was recently caught taking his wife out for dinner twice in one week and strong eyewitness evidence suggests he also gave her a foot massage. We have excommunicated him from the He-Man Woman-Haters club. Bubba Og
Date: 7/11/2002 4:00:00 PM  From Authorid: 23610    Wow, what an interesting post. I can tell you did a lot of work on this. I personally have always found the concept of excommunication (when it comes to religion) to be almost laughable. How can one really believe that they can actually excommunicate a person from God? It's silly and poor thinking. As for the social ramifications (which I believe are the institution's true intent). The fact that a pious "God fearing" group would attempt to humiliate and ostracize a person from any further contact is cruel....and certainly not something that Jesus would have done. There for it is hypocritical.  
Date: 7/11/2002 4:59:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 55536    Lady Nyx I agree - the sole purpose for this action is to separate the person from the group. No group has the power to separate a person from God. I have spoken with many who have been shunned and been on both sides of this fence. My personal opinion is that it is cruel. It separates families needlessly. I have read expereinces where young children are shunned in their homes by their own parents due to this practice. There is nothing loving about it. And from what I have read the only reason most people go back is so that they do not permanently lose connection to their families. I don't doubt that some go back for the relationship with God but those are few I fear. - Lady Lee  
Date: 7/11/2002 6:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 46486    That's the longest post I ever seen!!! LOL Sorry   
Date: 7/11/2002 8:27:00 PM  From Authorid: 54987    Yes it is the longest post for me too LOL. But I replied you your last post on the subject of mind control and so after eventually reading this one it makes me sad that the religion that was based on good and spiritual principles can allow this. Coolade  
Date: 7/11/2002 8:40:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 55536    Well since it is so long - thanks for hanging in there and reading all of it. That alone is an accomplishment. -- It makes me sad too coolaid -- Lady Lee  
Date: 7/11/2002 9:03:00 PM  From Authorid: 54987    I'd just like to point out that this same thing happened to a couple of friends of mine who were in the Bahai faith. They left the faith and the friends that they had made there ignored them and were told to treat them as though they had died. Coolade  
Date: 7/11/2002 9:11:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 55536    Oh that is so apinful Coolaid. Sadly a lot of groups do this. The JWs are just one example of this type of punishing abusive behavior. - Lady Lee  
Date: 7/13/2002 6:41:00 AM  From Authorid: 160    I'm wondering if those little boys and girls in a certian mainstream religion wish their their pedofile priests had been ex-communictaed before they became their victims. I wonder how their parents feel knowing that these priests are left to abuse many more because that religion did not practice the scriptural means for protecting those kids. And this practice is entirely scriptural as the apostle Paul said "Do not even eat with such ones" If left alone they would contaminate the whole congregation. It is an attempt to uphold the integrity of Jehovahs name. And I do make allowances that there may have been abuses of power in some cases but the act of disfellowshipping although to some may sound cruel and inhumane serves a need and purpose. That of keeping the congregation clean.  
Date: 7/13/2002 6:46:00 AM  From Authorid: 28363    Release with love until you become free  
Date: 7/13/2002 6:56:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 55536    PamyJo I'm sure all the victims wish it hadn't happened. Although we are finding out that many churches are discovering they have this problem the Catholic Church has come out publically and admitted they have the problem and they are doing something about it. As for the JWs - well they have a new policy - which went up on their website around the time they knew Dateline was coming out. The Dateline show showed someone in WT headquarters legal dept to "just walk away" if the alleged abuser denied it. There are 23,000 names at headquarters of pedophiles in the congregations -- 23,000. This isn't a small or infrequent problem. It is huge. And only 2 of those 23,000 case were reported to the police and those were only cases where the accused was not a JW. You have a policy. But it seems that the WTS was more intent on throwing out those who spoke about the problem rather than those who created the problem. And it showed convicted pedophiles going door-to-door. Don't they realize they men are sick and need heavy duty counseling and even then are rarely "cured" of their pedophilia? It seems to me that the witch-hunt for those who spoke out (and remember I am one of those who spoke out - not to Dateline but in my own case of abuse) and was thrown out because I would not stop speaking the truth. I'm sorry if this hurts you and your belief but I need to speak the truth. It hurts too much to have lost my friends and family, the community I grew up in, my home and almost killed myself to start lying about it. And having been on the nasty side of disfellowshipping it isn't loving.  
Date: 7/13/2002 9:23:00 AM  From Authorid: 160    The facts are that Lee is focusing on something that man is responsible for. Something that she knows if she was in this faith for the years that she claims that Jehovah exposes all wrongdoers, And he disciplines. And if there are things that need to be changed in the society they will be changed. Sometimes people who are disfellowshipped are angry, understandably so. Some turn on the society the way that Lee has, some like my daughter who was disfellowshipped for 5 years waited for certain truths to come to the surface and she was re-instated. Today she is a happy member of Jehovahs Witnesses, she is acive in the ministry and like all of Jehovahs Witnesses wait for Jehovah to bring about an end to this wicked system of things, and restore the paradise that he origiinally planned the earth to become. Thats what concerns me so much in all of this, that this very important message is somehow getting lost. This system is doomed all according to prophesy. Big businesses are going bankrupt. Government will turn on religion just as the prophesies in Revelation foretold and when this happens thus starts the Great Tribulation, The end result is Armageddon. That is the message that I dont want to get lost in all of this.  
Date: 7/13/2002 10:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 23610    Wow....I don't think Lee has turned on society at all. I think she has brought up a very valid point. I also agree that what she is pointing out is something that man is responsible....as are so many actions in organized religion....done in the name of God.  
Date: 7/14/2002 6:12:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 55536    PamyJo I would like to know why your daughter had to wait 5 long years before her situation came to light as you say. Why couldn't it have been dealt with immediately. I have waited 38 years before I started speaking out about some of it. Why do victims have to wait so long for men to do the right thing? It isn't hard. Tell the victims and their families to go to the police because it is a criminal matter instead of telling them to be quiet so they don't bring shame on the congregation. Disfellowshipping me to "keep the cong clean" is abusurb. They still have the abuser in the cong. That is not "keeping the cong clean" And anyone who stands by and accepts that as OK is just as responsible for the problem as those who actually do it. When I have heard neighbors screaming because the husband is abusing them I don't say "Let someone else deal with it" I call the police. When I see a child being abused or neglected I don't say "I don't want to cause any trouble" or "I don't want them to think I called and then come after me" I call the authorities. That is my moral responsibility. I would expect more from any group who calls themselves "God's chosen people". Throwing out the people who ARE trying to do the right thing makes no sense. ----Lady Nyx Thank you - Lady Lee  
Date: 7/16/2002 7:59:00 AM  From Authorid: 49277    kinda late here- sorry but i still wanna comment. I was raised a Witness for 16 yrs so i know all about this. first of all, Lady Lee, if they told u to keep quiet then they were not doing their jobs. The elders r SUPPOSED to say in that situation, "Do what u think is right, look in the bible, consult your concience" etc. My mother was abused and when she went to the elders she asked them what to do and they didnt tell her. They wouldnt tell her to go to the police becuz if they did and she went, and it turned out badly she could blame even sue them. instead they stay nuetral and encourage one to think for themself and decide what to do.  
Date: 7/16/2002 8:15:00 AM  From Authorid: 49277    also in the paragraph above that starts with: "Mrs. D. states that these scriptures have encouraged her friends and family to shun her..."well sum but not all of that is true. first of all u can pray for them, pray that they're well, that they return to the religion.. just not that they contintue to succeed in their wrong doing etc. also her mother should have called, that would not have been wrong according to their religion, shes just not supposed to invite her over and hang out with her, but in situations like that association is approved. even to give her a ride or to get groceries if she had no car. stuff like that. she SUPPOSED to encourage and help her, just not associate with her. also, if she attended a meeting with a good strong congregation she would not be shunned. they want the disfellowshipped to return. she might have a hard time being there and not participating or talking to others but thats up to her. thats all. i have a pretty nuetral stand point here since i am not longer a witness, but have no real bitter feelings towards it.  
Date: 7/16/2002 12:13:00 PM  From Authorid: 42940    Lee, I remember when I was called into the judicial meeting to confess my sins and face possible disfellowshipping. Do you want to know what one of the first things they asked me? It was - do you still believe this is God's earthly organization. I didn't think much about it at the time but I understand why now. They wanted to know if I had been deprogrammed. You hear JW's all the time saying things like it's not Watchtower's fault. The people that do these things are weak, bad heart condition, blah blah blah, and Jehovah (which is NOT the God of the Bible's name) will weed them out. Stop and think about this for a minute will you? Who runs the Watchtower? It's likened to the Wizard of Oz - who does the Wizard of Oz turn out to be? The man behind the curtain. Why is it when the Watchtower wants JW's to do something they must just submit to everything without question. Why? Because "God directs the Watchtower". But when the Watchtower screws up they say "we're only human - human error - those people ran ahead of the celestial chariot". I find that very hypocritical. Even blashphemous. If God really directs the Watchtower and the men that run it should be held to a higher level of responsibility ALL OF THE TIME. People's lives are at risk for pity's sake. If God directs them then why do they make so many mistakes? If God directs them then why have they made so many false prophecies since their beginning, disquised as "new light"? I'll tell you why because although God loves each and every one of them, He is not directing those old frail men in New York known as the Watchtower. In fact I head recently that those "remnant old men" don't even run the Watchtower anymore. They had to break it up for legal reasons (FYI they're getting their pants sued off). Those religious elders have no clue what it's like in the real world. Charles Taze Russell (CTR) founded his 1914 date on pyrimidology. CTR was more than likely a Mason. The real problem I see is that its foundation is weak. The structure gets weaker every day as God exposes their false teachings and it will one day crumble. That's what we're seeing today. God is exposing all false religions, including the Jehovah's Witnesses. Not just the Catholics are to blame. Anyone who abuses and blinds His people. Most recently this child abuse on Dateline came out. The reversal on the "blood issue" (I'll be doing a post about this so stay tuned for more information). The Watchtower's affiliation with the scarlet beast (UN NGO). The Watchtower's Mason connection. The Watchtower's 1914 date actually goes back to the measurements of the Pyramid. It's not apostates that hurt the Watchtower it's their own crazy history. The Watchtower expects us to believe that after Jesus' death, some 2000 years, God didn't have anything to do with His people until he saw Charles Taze Russell? A man who was accused by his own wife as being a pedophile and scam artist (miracle wheat). How did I learn about their history? The internet - the Watchtower's worst enemy. That's why they strongly discorage people from going on the net. That's why they don't want JW's talking to ex members. I'm sorry Lady I kinda got off the subject here. What I really want to say is that after I got out of the Watchtower I did feel dead spiritually. They drilled it into my head so deeply that if I was not approved and part of the Watchtower that God turned his back on me and I was doomed. It really hurt to feel like that. But you know what? I never gave up on myself and thank God, He didn't either. I've suffered and recovered from abuse all my life and this time wasn't going to be any different. Being shunned never really bothered me much because I wasn't that popular in the congregation nor had I built my life around it enough to cause an impact. The did however, temporarily hurt me spiritually. But it was through my sadness that God really showed me the truth behind the truth. The really sad and frustrating part is that when you try and tell JW's about these things their mind's don't send out the right signals. They prefer to attack the character of the accuser and block out all the facts instead of processing them. That's mind control at work. Thanks for listening, I really needed to get that out. *** bad kitty ***
Date: 7/16/2002 12:51:00 PM  From Authorid: 54987    WELL SPOKEN Bad kitty. I applaud you ... Coolade  
Date: 7/16/2002 7:25:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 55536    BAD KITTY = GREAT KITTY - You got it MmmmmmWaaaaaaaa. You got it so good. I agree 100 nope 200 % == sure hope you feel good after getting that off your chest - Lady Lee  
Date: 7/16/2002 7:34:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 55536    SAVAGE FLOWER - Thanks for dropping by. I am DFed. It has been my experience and that of many other ex-JWs that they do not pray for those who are DFed. My mother refuses to talk to me. She refused to come to my daughter's wedding because I was there. I just got married. She wants nothing to do with me. I have yet to meet an ex-JW where that is different. - Lady Lee  
Date: 7/16/2002 7:35:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 55536    Hi COOLAID nice to see you still hanging out - Lee  

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