Date: 8/1/2002 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 19173
I'm not sure I understand what the debate is here.  |
Date: 8/1/2002 8:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 24003
What is the debate? The differences in our beliefs? Im lost.  |
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Date: 8/1/2002 8:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 55376
The Protestants seem to believe God has not spoken to anyone for darn near a couple millenia. Og |
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Date: 8/1/2002 8:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 55376
I believe the debate is Protestant's tend to believe that God's complete word is in the Bible. Catholics believe along with the Bible there are apostolic traditions guiding Catholic teachings. Catholics also believe the Holy Spirit still guides men, the Pope in particular, on matters of church doctrine. Og |
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Date: 8/1/2002 8:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
I am sorry, I wil try to clarify?? There are big differences between both on issues of salvation,Sola scriptura "Bible only", Sola-fide,justification, sacraments or not?,........Just want opinions. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 9:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
dear Og, You seem to be knoledgeable on these issues. Are you catholic or protestant? or none of the above. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 9:12:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
I am catholic and I just have an issue the bible alone theory. I've studied christian history and I've searched scripture. I just can't find where this concept is taught in the bible. Please help. just searching for truth........lol....... |
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Date: 8/1/2002 9:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 55376
My parents are Protestant, my wife is Catholic, I am Goombhanian. Og |
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Date: 8/1/2002 9:20:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Interesting I think?......has any one seen HAWK? |
Date: 8/1/2002 9:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
I need more info before I dive into this debate  Please explain the "bible alone" theory a bit more, so that I know exactly where you are coming from.  |
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Date: 8/1/2002 9:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Dear paraniod, all bible based churches take there sole rule of faith from the bible catholics tradition and bible. Not to ruffle feathers but want to know where in scripture By the bible alone... is taught....hugs |
Date: 8/1/2002 9:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 36079
Christians also believe the Holy Spirit guides us. We believe that God is powerful enough to put just what he wants in the Bible. It says God never changes, yet the Catholics have all these rules outside the Bible, that umm contradicts the Bible."It says in the Bible John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:05:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
In johns time. The "word" John speaks about in John 1 is the word made flesh JESUS not the bible.The N.T bible was put together nearly 300 yrs later See..Council of Carthage 383 and Hippo 397 By catholic bishops. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:08:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Which rules Smurfpoo?? do you mean Traditions?.........lol |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 59671
Just think of it this way. When the Israelites were God's chosen people, they all follow the Law. Now there are many different Jewish factions, from Orthodox Judaism, to Reform Judaism, to Conservative Judaism. Do you think it would have please God in Moses' day if the tribes of say, Naphtali and Ben, for example, practiced different forms of worship, when the guidelines set in the Mosaic Law were for all?! Well it is the same for Christianity today. Surely Paul, Simon Peter, Cornelius, Stephen, and other First-Century all practiced the same Christianity that Jesus taught. Paul's letter to the Ephesian congregation speaks of: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Eph. 4:5) Yet many of Christian sects, from Catholicism, to Lutheranism, to Adventism, to Mormonism, teach vastly different doctrines. The question to apply to oneself is simply this: "How does God himself want to be worshiped?" Surely by the guidelines laid out in the Greek Scriptures, as taught by Jesus Christ. Assumedly, any aspects of worship that were crucial to ones salvation should be easily found in the Scriptures. After all, Israel fell from favor, even having The Law CLEARLY presented to them, in minute detail. How much moreso would Christians today fall from His favor if we allow ourselves to rely on imperfect man's teachings? |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 59671
Oops, I meant Benjamin, not Ben. |
Date: 8/1/2002 10:18:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Not all traditions are bad. Paul talks about both ORAL traditions and scripture are to be followed on both equal in authority.See 2 Thess 2:15; Tim 2 ; 1 Cor 11;1 Thess 2:13.Acts 2:42......early christians followed apostolic traditions.2 Jn !:12;3 Jn 1:13-14......more oral tradition...LOL |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 36079
well, I would say they have different beliefs, like intercession with saints, when it says in the Bible that the dead can not hear us, and that necromancy is an abomination, how preists are called father when it says in the Bible the only person you should call this is God, they put up statues of Mary and saints when it says not to erect idols. They also ask intercession with Mary who again was just a mortal woman and trying to talk to her is necromany, and so on. Traditions are ok, but not when they goagainst Gods law. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:27:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
I totally agree.Division and disunity is not what jesus wanted ONE CHURCH ONLY. Eph 5;25-26.......Christ loved the church.CHurch is given perpituity Matt 16-18 protection by holy spirit ALWAYS. 1 Tim 3:15..."Church is the foudation and pillar truth" Mt 18:17-18...CHurch is final authority.Mt 23.....Pharisees succeeded Moses....LOL |
Date: 8/1/2002 10:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 47932
the bible was altered by the protestant reformation. the last old testimate books in the Catholic bible The book of Macabees (sorry I bet the spelling is worng) was cut from the bible by the protistants becouse there are prayers for the dead in it. It remains out of the potestant bible to many churches becouse thay do not beleave in pergitory or that anything can change after death. Other things were changed in the bible by the protestant reformation becouse they did not fit the protestant churchs view. So the argument is moot...people have been changing the bible throu translation and retranslation. BOo  |
Date: 8/1/2002 10:35:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Statues: Ex 25:18-22 26:1:31;Num 21 -9 .....God commands images made.1 KIngs 63-29,35,79......Solomons temple statues and imagesMt 90-22.........Jesus garment cures woman. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:45:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Saints macc 15:11-16..........Deceased Onias and jerimiah interceded for jews.Jn 15 1-8.......Vine and its branches just because we are dead doest mean we are broken off the vine.WE are all part of the body of christ.....Lk 20:34-38........Those who died are like angels.Rev 8:3-4; Jer 15:1............saints intercede.Jos 5:14; Dan 8:17:Tob 12:16.........veneration of angels united with god.Bless be those who die in the name of the lord more alive than we are. Mt126-27............Not god of the dead but of the living.We ask mary to intercede for us just as you can ask you pastor or any christian to do.It pleases god!!!!!!Holy mary mother of god pray for us now and at the hour of our death..AMEN. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:51:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
" I would not believe the gospel itself, If the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so."......-St Augustine(354-430). |
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Date: 8/1/2002 10:56:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
The Title "catholic Church" wasused as early as the year 107 when Ignatius of Antioch used the title to describe the one church jesus founded.apparantly the title was old at that time was used all the way back to the apostles. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 11:00:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
"call no man father" Catholics call their spiritual leader "father"because we follow in Pauls example " I became you father in jesus christ through the gospel" (1Cor 4;15). |
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Date: 8/1/2002 11:01:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Pope means "PAPA". |
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Date: 8/1/2002 11:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Very true 47932.....Thanks for all the insiteful remarks. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 11:29:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
The word trinity is not implicitly taught in the bible or should I say the godhead of the holy spirit. The church defined it due to uprising sects Donatist and most of all arians Questioning the divinity of christ.Council of nicean 325 ad.Many things arent taught in bible jesus knew this and so gave us an authoritative church to preserve and teach truth1 Tim 3:15.im am not saying that the church is perfect or even its members and even some leaders of it have been corupt but scripture say's that not all member would go to heaven Matt 7 21-23.But truth would never change,Matt 16-18. |
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Date: 8/2/2002 12:02:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Sorry. I meant the word "trinity" is no where found in scripture!!!!!!!.........lol. |
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Date: 8/2/2002 10:02:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Statues;.......Ex 25:18-22;26:1,31....God talks about seraphin being carved and placed ob top of ark....furtermore were told to worship there........God is'nt against statues but IDOLOTRY>>>arent the pictures in your wallet a modern form of grave images??????..........lol |
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Date: 8/2/2002 10:25:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
If the irealites had the Law(tora)alone. as modern day bible christians have bible alone. What was the need for moses. Moses not only gave them gods law but the isrealites were so afraid of god they would sent him to tell them and "teach" what he wanted. Magesterium "teacher" was needed to interpret the written law for them. cathlic church Has Magesterium ( we all know what the constitution says, but we still need a supreme court to interpret what is meant) our early countries fathers knew this and so did not just sent a copy of constituion to everyone and say fend for yourselves, our country would not have lasted 10 years. church also has and venerates sacred scripture, and sacred tradition never contrary to gods comand(Mark 7). Like a three legged stool. adventist , mormans arnt christian as we know it jesus was a great man (prophet) and not DIVINE to their sects. We believe In trinity. |
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Date: 8/2/2002 11:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
I will attempt to answer your question: Galatians 1 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" This verse implies that the scriptures are the ultimate authority in Christianity. What is the gospel? The "good news" of Jesus Christ. It is found within the New Testament. There are no people living today from that era who can tell us everything about the doctrines of Christ. There is only the written revelation (scripture) which must guide us. There are quite a few Catholic doctrines which run contrary to the scriptures ... therefore someone within the Catholic church began to teach a "gospel contrary" to what the Apostles taught. Hence the reason for the verse I quoted. One can read 2 Tim 3:16 to find out what the scriptures are to be used for. "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;" And these verses show us what happens when man interposes his own wisdom instead of following God's ideas. (Prov 3:5; Prov 286) How else is one to know what God wishes if they do NOT try to glean His ideas from the bible? Where else is this knowledge to be found? |
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Date: 8/3/2002 10:21:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
thanx for you post paranoid, the bible talk's about a false gospel that would come. I think going byn the bible alone can lead us to that road if not careful:..........Jn 215......not everthing is in the bible.It realy say's that.2 Perer 3:16.......scripture hard to understand. a big one!2 Peter 1;20-21.........against personal interpretation.and Acts 8:31.......right teacher needed to interpret scripture.The bible indicates that along with oral tradition we are to follow written scrpture. 1 Cor 11. Those oral tradition 's are the real presence of the ecucarist(John 6) , Veneration of the saint's (Lk 20-34-38), heiarcy in the church (acts 2:42), confessions to a priest ( John 20-23).Salvation and works (Jas 2:14-26), there many misconceptions of the Catholic faith.FACT The catholic church ;if you look at it with different, fits very beautifully with the gospel "good news". I will try to do that.another fact The scriptures call the church and not the bible the "Foundation and pillar of truth" Tim 3:15. a further study of (2 tim 3:17) does not show that scriptures are final but profitable for every good work . ( Not sufficient) water is profitable( but not sufficient) for my health but so is eating ,exercise, praying,................... |
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Date: 8/3/2002 12:26:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
I don't want to or even try to play short the "word" of god because I truly love It. (catholics or protestant this is our book and let no one put in down or try to tear it with science, idealogy, mysicism,.......)I love it so much that I've studied it in {Greek,Hebrew} so many things: there are stories,history, parables,........beautiful !!! But one thing I cannot do is worship it( in other words my faith strickly from this book) I will only worship my lord and savior JESUS CHRIST........period..traditional Christianity was never just limited to a religion of the word (N.T)but of the word made flesh. It's just hard for me to neglect history(Patristic era) (Early church fathers and what they had to say)It was these people that choose which books in our bible were inspired .!FACT....If everything was in the bible.....where are the inspired table of contents.A Extra Biblical source was needed and that is the church that is the foubdation and pillar of truth.............Bible is truth but never neglect history.........lol |
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Date: 8/3/2002 12:35:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
(Oral Tradition) is the original deposit of Chritain faith. These traditions should be taught along with scripture in all christian church's because jesus commanded it.......... |
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Date: 8/3/2002 12:55:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
A furthur study of Timothy 3:16-17:........."all scripture is inpired , for teaching,to reprove,to correct, to instucct in justice, that the man of god may be perfect for every good work." Catholic church feels the same way!The greek word ophelimos "profitable" means usefull and not sufficient.the greek work pasa which is often rendered ""all" actually means "every"The greek reads is such a way that eans every individual scripture is profitable. if the doctrice of sola-scriptura were true then each and every indidual book of the bible could stand on its own as the sole rule of faith, a position which is absurd..............The "scripture" paul speaks about is the (O.T.)... The N.T books were not around yet. Think about it when jesus quoted scripture it was from old testament.paul did same. a Question that needs to be asked how can we be sure we have all the correct writings catholic church gave us the canon.the "man of god made perfect" Considering when paul wrote this and which scripture he was refering to (OT) yeah it would make you a perfect jew.There really is alot more but need to run errand...................lol |
Date: 8/3/2002 5:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
St. Joe, everyone knows that the Catholics high jacked the truth, as taught by Jesus, inserted a bunch of pagan traditions and called themselves the "universal" church. Not to be disrespectful to your faith, but the Bible doesn't say that I need to have an intercessor for God, i.e., the Pope or a priest, that Mary is infallible, and the Bible expressly prohibits the mingling of paganism and idolatry. However, it is my opinion that in light of the recent scandal in the CHURCH, that this alone should make any Catholic, and any Protestant who deviates from the Scripture, severely question the teachings of both camps. I tend to stick with what the Bible literally teaches, and don't rely on men to explain it to me, as, in my opinion, it is pretty self explanatory.  |
Date: 8/3/2002 6:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 50678
"I believe Jesus left only one,holy,catholic and apostolic church." You say catholic church, that is not the only religion on this earth that is important, as I have said before all religions are part of christs church, they all belong to the one holy church, it isn't far to others to say that Jesus left only one holy church and that is catholic, there are a lot of other important religions, I us to be catholic and I hated it, that is not the religion for me because I have gone past there beliefs, so please don't say the holy church is one religion, it is all of them.  |
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Date: 8/3/2002 7:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
The CHURCH left by Jesus Christ is not an organized "religion," but a thought and a belief, that encompasses many ideologies, in my humble opinion. He said that you would know a tree by its fruits, not by what kind of tree it is. Organized religion, the Catholic, Baptist, or whatever, cannot lay claim to being the CHURCH Jesus spoke of, however, many of God's people are in many churches, and many of Satan's also, are in the same churches. The Bible is complete, and even Jesus said to be "wary of the traditions of men." God didn't want the temple built as He expressly asked David how he could build Him a house, when the earth was His footstool. I believe there are many fine people in the Catholic Church, however the heiarchy, in my opinion, teaches lies about God, with full knowledge, in order to keep people in their guilt and keep them from the true freedom that Jesus is about. Spiritual freedom. You can argue for your idolatrous saints, and your "infalliability of the Pope," and "your universalist church," all day long, but the BIBLE can and does stand alone, despite the attempts of many men, Catholic or Protestant, or even Jewish for that matter, to take away or add to the book. |
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Date: 8/3/2002 8:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
thanx for all of your post. I apreciate the opinions of all gods people. |
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Date: 8/3/2002 8:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
Dear author, what? Are you giving up that easy? Where's your zeal, man? Just kidding. God Bless. Asking questions and questioning answers is what makes us learn. |
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Date: 8/3/2002 8:31:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
I will try to answer the responses of the the church not bieng one visible entity ,but as many believe being a church of likeminded believers "denominalization"......."If your brother sins against you go and tell his fault between him and you, and if he doent listen take one or two along side with you and if he still doest listen ,take it to the CHURCH, and if he still doent listen treat him as if he were a gentile and taxcollector.Amem amen whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven" (Math 18 17-18)..........here we se the church with authority ,not man's authority but jesus given authority. Take for ex, A lutheran, baptist, U.PC. (a offshoot of assembly of god) were arguing about baptism (inphant regenrative or a spiritual baptism) Col 2:11-12....baptism now saves...replaced. circumcision...That bieng established?.... If they were to follow what scipture say's(and every bible christian get there interpretation from bible) who would be the final say so??????????The luteran would tell the baptist I don't agree with your interpretation go back to your church! and the baptist would tell the luthran the same and so on,............Thus the dispute never go solved.???????and scriture just cotradicted it self. Not all traditions are bad. |
Date: 8/3/2002 8:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 50864
am a Lutheran and I agree with you there is only one Bible And the phrase you used One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that is in the Niacene Creed that is a part of our communion service  |
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Date: 8/3/2002 8:55:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Dearest freegirl,Thax for the challenge. Scholarship will show that not a single word of the new testament scriptures were even written down for 65 yrs from our lords assension in to heaven.I oth words, when jesus assended into heaven we were left with apostolic tradions, o.t. scripture (tora), jesus, promise to never leave us orphan plus his quick return,and his church "Foudation and pillar of truth".(patristic era writings, early church fathers) came soon after some even writing at the time on john the apostle...What I am saying is that with this oral revelation and tradition and bits and pieces of n.t writing (2 thess 2:15)2 jn 1:121 cor 1) they went out to make "disples of nations". was not told to pass bible's out to all nations so that every one can be saved.ORAL TRADITION along with O.T> scripture and bits and pieces on n>T. did the job christ asked. Please read above posting on issues of "saint pagan worship"pope is infalable on issues of faith and morals and when speaking ex-cathedra. dont get immpecability mixed with imfaliability. all men have fallen short in the face of god and are sinners. |
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Date: 8/3/2002 9:13:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
Freegirl, it is my opinion that your are looking for a perfect church. Judging churches "religion" on the fruit's they bear??????? (protestant as well as catholics have done some horible stuff)Heavensgate scandal.....petafile priest,..................jesus did say that his church would be both good and bad and not all would go to heaven.GODS GRACE IS ALWAYS GREATER THAN MANS SIN.......... or not looking for a church at all but are content with bible alone. I'm still not sure what you're argument is. but I love your zeal for gods word. the bible is absolute truth but so is history. |
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Date: 8/3/2002 9:16:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59515
dear Mrs strider, Nicean creed has been said in apostolic church's since 325 a.d. |
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Date: 8/6/2002 7:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 61310
why is this only for christians? |
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Date: 8/6/2002 8:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
Thanks for the debate, dear. I suppose we've found out one thing that is true - we both love God and need Jesus to get forgiven. Everything else is just icing on the cake, so to speak. Agreed? God bless. |
Date: 8/10/2002 1:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 61436
I was raised in a Catholic Church for 8 yrs. stopped going, and in 99' was saved in a Baptist church, to tell you the truth, there arent REAL big differences, there are traits that one church does that a diff doesnt. As long as they believe that Jesus is Christ and Savior ... I dont care what u call yourself cause i call myself Diciple of Christ
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