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Date: 11/3/2002 5:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 30264
of course the people who have abortions aren't gonna have a funeral for the baby since it's "not a real person".......what a lame excuse for murder  |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 53806
should this site be wasted on this post?  |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
GPC-- thanks for the lovely comment *smiles*  |
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Date: 11/3/2002 6:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
MAniac-- Oh but they DO-- belive it or not, it may not be a common practice in the U.S., but it IS common in other countries. |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 53806
U R VERY WELCOME  |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 23959
I guess it would just have to be up to the woman who aborted ...I really don't know. That's a very hard question to answer. I really don't see someone aborting, then spending money to have funeral services, just for the simple fact that some women abort because they feel they can't "afford" to have the baby. (In my own opinion)  ~Chaunta  |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 19586
Dizzy, in what countries do they practice this? I am just curious. Is it in a limited population area?  |
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Date: 11/3/2002 6:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 19586
It is a hard thing to ask. In this country it seems as though women use abortion as a form of birth control. If there are extenuating circumstances, such as the baby would suffer terribly once born and the mother chooses abortion, maybe then. The mother would be mourning her loss. |
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Date: 11/3/2002 6:08:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
ICU nurse-- Japan is one of them I believe. Let me look up the info again and I'll get back to you in a sec. |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 15228
Some hospitals do offer this service. They even have baptisims..I posted a link to a picture of a mother holding her baby who was a victim of a partial birth abortion..it was deleted by the admins, even though to look at the baby it seemed only asleep, not dead, nothing more...In the picture they were having some kind of ceremony..Maybe it was a, Gosh sorry I had to kill ya, ceremony....who chooses to abort their baby than go to the trouble of holding it and posing for a picture??? I'm sorry, that is just sick...I don't think this is all that wide spread though..to hold a memorial service for an aborted baby, would mean the mother would have to acknowledge the fact that "it" was something more than a blob of tissue....  |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 15228
sorry! I hardly made any sense, hopefully you can figure out what I meant, I'm to tired to try to explain it .... |
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Date: 11/3/2002 6:14:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
Kelly-- excellent comment! |
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Date: 11/3/2002 6:16:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
ICUnirse-- Yes, it is done quite often in Japan from what I can see. But as Kelly said, it is done here as well, it just seems so ODD |
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Date: 11/3/2002 6:18:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
Here is MY opinion: I feel the way Kelly does: Wouldn't having a memorial service for the fetus be like admitting that it was more than just a blob of cells? WOuldn't that be like admitting that it WAS a baby that you had destroyed? |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
i am with dizzy and kelly on this one. i could maybe see it for other family members that diodn't agree with the abortion or for women who had to abort for an honest medical emergency and had wanted their child, or o woman that down the road was consumed by remorse for her choice and needed to mourn, but for women that chose the abortion? that is most bizarre. it is a contradiction. i gotta tell ya that just sounds a little sick and twisted, mentally off if you wll. one crayon short of the box. not to mention i hadn't any idea what partial birth abortion was until this year i had never heard of it. i was beyond shocked. what a hideous concept.  |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 49546
I think it's up to the birth mother! If she wants to have one, then by all means, thats her right! I have nothing against it! A memorial service YES! But grave plots??? Maybe not, The actual service should be done, but (don't want to sound mean) but grave plots should NOT be wasted on aborted fetuses, because (1) They are tecnically not a living human, 'coz they dies, and didn't live long enough to be considered so! (2) Land should be kept for real funerals! **I don't want to sound selfish, rude and so on but that's my opinion!  |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
No. Unless the mother really see's fit. But I think I know what you are talking about. I have heard of people "Fanatics" mostly, who will rob the aborted fetuses and then have funerals and bury them and mourn them, etc. I think that is the most rediculous thing I have ever seen, and those people should really be legally disciplined for stealing biowaste.  |
Date: 11/3/2002 6:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 36901
Sometimes women have abortions because they don't have a choice. I've seen a situation where the mother and child would have died if the pregnancy would have continued. So impo it just depends on the situation. Also, what if a woman has an abortion then the father finds out and is devistated? I think he has a right to grieve and have a memorial/burial if he so chooses. So in some cases, I say yes. In others such as a woman having an abortion simply because she doesn't want a child then having a burial for it doesn't make sense.  |
Date: 11/3/2002 8:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 21867
...hey, memorial services and grave plots ain't free...and they sure as heck ain't cheap either...so if someone wants to toss a few grand to the wind then good on 'em, let 'em do it. Peace,  |
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Date: 11/3/2002 8:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 61790
This is really a dumb question. The people who had the abortion obviously didn't care enough about the child to put it up for adoption and let it live, so why would they give it a funeral? BTw-of course there are exceptions, but they're probably rather rare.  |
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Date: 11/3/2002 8:40:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
Apocolypse-- Dumb Question? Obviously not, because this practice is common in other countries, and it does happen in the U.S. as well. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 6:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 15228
...This is from Dr. Tillers web site..He is a late-term abortionist in Kansas...The Chaplaincy program is designed to bring spiritual resources to those who come to the Clinic for help and assistance. Spiritually, abortion is acceptable in ten of the world's religions and in Christianity many denominations affirm and uphold the right of a woman to make the choice of abortion. The Chaplaincy program works with people from all religious backgrounds as well as those who are not a part of a spiritual tradition. The program offers individual counseling, group counseling and the celebration of spiritual sacraments such as baptism for the aborted fetus. The program works with many different religions and is prepared to do, or arrange for, religious services from any spiritual religion. The services of Women's Health Care Serves is a coordinated effort so that every patient and significant other can experience the healing of body, mind and spirit. |
Date: 11/4/2002 7:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
90% of abortions are done in the first trimester and those are the ones that people consider a mass of cells which most likely would not be worthy to the parents to have memorial services or burial. 2nd Trimester abortions that are preformed are generally done in the last stages of the 2nd trimester because an amnio or ultrasound has found a severe defect in the child. Which means you are talking about a couple that was looking forward to the addition to their family and to them this child is a part of their family. A 3rd trimester abortion again happens because through testing it is found that the fetus is dead, deformed, or there is great risk to the mother's health such as diabetes or heart problems that would severly endanger her life if she continued the pregnancy. In the last two cases these are "babies" and not considered to be the mass of cells as is in a 1st trimester abortion to these women in the situation. So yes burial services and memorial services are held in those cases. What people don't seem to understand is, you have a choice for abortion up to a certain number of weeks that is allowable by law. For example in Ny state I believe it is 20 weeks. After 20 weeks there is no medical doctor's office that you are going to walk into and get a voluntary abortion without having a serious medical problem. Naturally there are your corrupt doctors out there that will do anything for a buck under the table, but those that seek memorial services or burial services for an aborted fetus are not those type of people. For example my cousin had an abortion at close to 6 months pregnant. Ultrasound showed that her baby had no brain. This was at the same time that down south that they had that baby Jessica that was born with only a brain stem. My cousins baby had absolutely no brain matter at all. There was no chance of survival for this baby and the only reason that he was still living was because he was still attatched to her. Regardless of whether she waited until she was ready to deliver or she did it then, as soon as this baby would be born he would die. She is very small in the pelvic region and requires a c-section in order to deliver her children. After talking with her husband they decided to go ahead with the abortion. They did this because they loved this baby first and foremost and by having the abortion that early in the pregnancy the baby was small enough to be able to pass through her pelvis and she could deliver him naturally. They didn't have to do the removal of brain matter because he had none. But she was able to have a bonding with that child that she couldn't have with her others and that was the ability to deliver him naturally. They held him and took picture of him and he is buried in a plot with a headstone. The removal of the brain matter may seem barbaric to some but in the end it is both easier on the mother and the unborn fetus. The removal of the baby is easier on the mother and the fetus does not suffer any longer than it has to. If I was faced with that situation I would rather that the doctor end the suffering rather than force the baby to suffocate to death at it's own rate. But that is just me. Many of the people you see holding their aborted babies are not rejoicing over their decision, they are mourning at what was the hardest decision that any women could possibly ever be faced with.  |
Date: 11/4/2002 7:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 3395
I don't think they'd want to waste their money on something they think isn't real and filled with life. Peace,  |
Date: 11/4/2002 7:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
no, and no -  |
Date: 11/4/2002 9:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 20104
No because they are not alive.  |
Date: 11/4/2002 2:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
You mean murdered fetus's? Dont worry you can correct your title now mistakes happen.  |
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Date: 11/4/2002 2:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Big Tex, give me a break. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 2:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
What 90% of the time an "aborted fetis" is because some 17 year old girl wasn't responsible enough to not have sex. So it is just wasting a gift God has givin to somone. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 2:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 3395
Hey, don't blame it all on the girl, k,... it's the guys fault, too. Peace, |
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Date: 11/4/2002 3:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
Not really unless it's rape. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 3:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
GREAT Big Tex, let's all just resort back to Not even Letting us VOTE ok! |
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Date: 11/4/2002 3:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
If there under 17 they cant anyways |
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Date: 11/4/2002 3:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
So are you saying that a lady can't just say no? |
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Date: 11/4/2002 3:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Can a guy? |
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Date: 11/4/2002 3:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Oh wait better question, Can a guy handle it if a girl does say no??? |
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Date: 11/4/2002 4:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 15228
Woman have a CHOICE, or so I thought. They can say no to sex and not get pregnant, or yest to birth control and not get pregnant..choice. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 5:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
yes, and then they have the choice of having or not having an abortion. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 5:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
Same thing of me havign the choice to murder or not murder. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 5:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Psst, you can't murder something that isn't alive. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 6:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
Human cell's aren't alive? Why doe's the first day she is pregnant get excited then. "It's" alive since day one. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 7:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
alive but without a brain. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 7:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
OK, once more... if a woman feels that she does not feel like PERMANENTLY altering her life, and her body, GUESS WHAT, they are HERS for her to decide. Not yours, not mine, not ANY mans, and not the governements. It is that simple. It is our constitutional right, to do with our lives as we see fit. It is nobodys buisiness if I choose to eat fatty foods, smoke ciggarettes, have sex, get pregnangt, and have an abortion, it is just NO BODY's BUISNESS. So why do fanatics have to get in the middle of the fray and start passing out morals like they are Bible Book Marks? MORALITY begins at home. Teah and Preach it there, and let the rest of us decide for ourselves. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 7:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
It should be illegal. Just because some women gets pregnant and doesn't want stretch mark's doesn't mean she can just have an abortion. As a woman it would be your responsibility to have the child. That is SOOOO irresponsible, mean, and selfish for a woman to do something like that. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 8:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
When YOu can cary and give birth to a child, and you can HONESTLY tell me that the ONLY thing that changes is her outward appearence BigT, then I will take your opinion of the legality seriously. |
Date: 11/4/2002 8:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Big Tex I am sorry if the truth in my comment bothered you. However last time I checked unfortunately the only thing a woman can't do by herself these days is get pregnant. She does need sperm from some kind of donor. Seeing how 9 out of 10 times that sperm is attached to something with half a brain cell it would seem to me that not only the female but the MALE in the situation should abide by your rules when it comes to doing the deed. For a man to run it takes the two legs God gave him for the woman it's a little more difficult than that, but it's okay we can bear the burden of that too. It's not the first time women got jipped. We have the pleasure of the menstral cycles, cramps, bloating, mood swings, hormones, menopause, hot flashes, night sweats, pregnancy, labor and delivery, let's not forget the breasts that go along with it all to feed all those babies we have, so sure slap us with the burden of making all of the decisions after you have left your mess behind. We can handle it. By the way the next time you are at the abortion clinic with your picket sign take a survey and ask every woman that walks in planning on getting her abortion where the other brain cell in the picture is and if he is tickled pink at the prospect of being daddy. Oh and also be sure to ask if he is right there ready to marry her and then whisk her off to never never land. Would seem to me the problem here is not the woman but the men that use the lucky two legs that God gave them while they call the female the murderer.... Miss C...Right on Sister.. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 8:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
I apologize Dizzy for this is totally off the topic of your original debate. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 8:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
All the woman has to do is cross her legs = no babies. Don't bring PMS and labor into this women just blow that way out of proportion. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 8:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Big Tex all the man has to do is keep it in his pants.. |
Date: 11/4/2002 8:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
I cant see why any woman that has such lack of compassion to abort a child, and NO, I'm not talking about those that have HAD to do it because they will die if they dont, but any other woman that does this, why bother with a funeral? I mean life doesnt mean anything so why should a funeral be did for something that apparently they found so worth less in the first place.  |
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Date: 11/4/2002 8:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
Well anyway's going back to the point when you abort a fetus that is taking life or the possibilite of life away from it. The woman have the job of having the baby. Not playing judge jury and execution. At least have the baby and put it up for adoption dont so selfless as to take life away from it. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 8:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Amen bigtex. |
Date: 11/4/2002 8:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
Big Tex, come back in about 10 years. Obviously your age inhibits your perspective. I don't mean that in a bad way. I'm not trashing ya. But there are some things that life experiences give you that you need before you can grasp a concept wholly. Seriously. I appreciate you having a say, but I think that you have not seen enough yet to be able to fully have an understanding of what is at play here...  |
Date: 11/4/2002 8:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 27270
Guess that should all be up to the one who had the abortion. Sounds wierd to me, but I think it should be an option since many people who have abortions feel remorse and guilt.  |
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Date: 11/4/2002 8:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
What haven’t I experienced that you have? Being a father to an abortioned baby or being a mom that is faced with the choice of abortion. So when I'm twenty-five I am automatically eligible for the *valid respectable opinion certificate* I don't see how the fact that I’m fifteen renders my opinions and facts futile. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 8:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
It's all up to you. Some people go through a lifetime never maturing. I can't explain it. But I WILL tell you that what you think now, and what you'll think when you're 25 will be a whole lot different... |
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Date: 11/4/2002 9:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
Really and I bet when you're 36 your opinions will change also so come back in another 10 years. |
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Date: 11/4/2002 9:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
You're probably right. However, the hormonal differences between you and me are astronomical. The difference in 10 years will be much less. Thanks for comin' out... |
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Date: 11/4/2002 9:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
Oh God...... |
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Date: 11/4/2002 9:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
You called?... |
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Date: 11/4/2002 9:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
Here's the lowdown: You are in your teens. You still haven't completed a process of change that we affectionatly call "puberty". "Mature for your age?" Whatever, fine. The bottom line is that your head is not on in a way that it will be for the rest of your life. It is still poking and prodding at whatever it is it will become. I remember how and what I thought about everything when I was a teen. I can laugh at it now. It seemed like a good idea at the time. And I have no regrets. However, I recognize that what I thought back then does not apply to what I think now. I had to reconsider, due to experiences and having my body settle down. Go ahead and pull your "Oh God..." It works for my case. That just shows the mentality that you have right now. The TEEN mentality. Have fun with it while you have an excuse. Once you hit the age of majority you'll have no excuse to be like that. So brush off my explanations and come back and look at this post in 10 years. If you mature at all I can guarantee that you'll chuckle your behind off thinkin', "Well I'll be, he was right."... |
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Date: 11/4/2002 10:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
You misunderstood my "Oh God" but anyways. Play the you're just a teen card I don't care either way thats not what I'm debating about. |
Date: 11/4/2002 10:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Absolutely. First of all...it is every person's right to make a decision like this for themself. The majority of the cases where memorials are held in cases like these are when the parent(s) wanted to have a child but somethin went wrong along the way and a decision had to be made whether to abort or not for medical reasons. Sometimes people are quick to judge and become irrationally emotional when the word "abortion" comes up without considering compassion or the fact that they do not know the circumstances of these people before they judge them. Secondly...how many "antichoice" advocates have created pseudo grave sites for aborted fetuses themselves? That would be the flip side of the coin. How could one judge that it would be right to do something like that and then deny the woman who aborted the same right? You never know what is in another person's heart. You can only guess and judge....and that is usually based on a biased, emotional knee jerk reaction.  |
Date: 11/5/2002 12:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 34814
I remember you posting on the stem research? I think they should do that. I don't see a need to make plots for someone who just gets rid of their fetus.  |
Date: 11/5/2002 5:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
There are no 'shoulds'- we all have the freedom to choose.  |
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Date: 11/5/2002 6:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 15228
Miss C, sure woman have a "right" to an abortion, but with thinking like yours, no wonder so many woman find themselves in the position that they think the only option they have is to abort..There are other choices, birth control, abstinance (gasp! Oh the horror!), adoption..abortion should be the very last resort, but for many woman they think it is the only option because it is the only thing that pro-abortion groups think or care about..the precious abortion "right" given to us by our founding fathers (what a joke)...Big Tex, don't let these people make you feel bad for having an opinion..I bet they'd be all over you if you got a girl pregnant and your "choice" was not to pay child support if she chose not to have an abortion..Choice is only for woman it would seem. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 7:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Kelly please spare us the pro abortion groups. There is no such thing as PRO Abortion. It's called PRO-CHOICE. Which means we believe in the right to be able to make the choice. REAL SIMPLE. It is absolutely AMAZING to me to see the number of women that are just all willing and ready to give up the choice on what happens with their own bodies and how it is going to affect their lives. What does a women need the right to vote for? Why should she be entitled to fair and equal payment for employment? Why should women even become educated or have careers if everyone is so gung-ho about taking the ability away from a woman to decide what happens to her in most personal aspect of her own life? We might as well just turn around and go back to the days of being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. Forget all the rights women have been fighting for. What difference do they make if someone can tell a women what she HAS to do with her own body? Being pro-choice doesn't mean advocating for abortion. It has nothing to do with morals or values. I myself have never had an abortion and will never have an abortion voluntarily, but there is no way that I am going to tell another women what she should do, or has to do regarding her own fertility. It is not difficult to say, nope it's not for me and leave the decision up to the person in the situation. |
Date: 11/5/2002 9:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 15232
I think they should. After all, it would have been their child, their own flesh and blood. But, if a woman is cold enough to have an abortion in the first place, I can't see why they would care to bury them. I think that by actually acknowledging the fetus as a human being by burying it, would make them realize what they had done. They don't want to think of it as a child they killed, just a problem that they got rid of. The poor little things deserve a grave and/or memorial service, for not being given a chance to live.  |
| Date: 11/5/2002 9:21:00 AM From Authorid: 56296 I think it would really depend. My aunt had to have an abortion because the baby in her was badly disformed and wouldn't live for be 3 from what the doctor said, so she had it aborted to keep it from suffering and she did a ceremony for it. It was a beautiful ceremony too. But if you're aborting a child just because you simply don't want it, then I don't think it's right. That's admitting to the murder and showing it off as if its some big heartache when most are shaking by the operation and not really losing the life. So, it depends for me. ~HC |
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Date: 11/5/2002 9:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 15232
Sure a fetus doesn't have a brain, but it was created by God, and had a purpose to be on this earth. If there was conception, there was a reason for it. In God's plan, there is a reason for everything. There was supposed to be a future for that fetus, perhaps they would have been a U.S. President that would change the world, or perhaps a doctor, or someone important that would have made a difference...but now they can't because they didn't have a voice to speak up and say "hey, don't kill me, I could make you proud, just give me a chance." |
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Date: 11/5/2002 10:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Kelly, very good and I'm with you on that. AZariah, pro choice? pro abortion? What does the name matter, pro choice is just a name that apparently gives people a better feeling in their mind for what they are doing. Abortion is abortion no matter what you label it. You say that it amazes you to see the number of women that are willing and ready to give up the CHOICE on what happens with their bodies and how its going to effect their lives. What about the child that is being sucked out? Gee could be a girl child, and what choice does she get about what is happening to her body? You say that each gets their own choice to do what they wish with their bodies, WHAT choice does this girl baby have that is in its mothers womb? Your implying that they have no rights nor should they. To me that is saying that the pro choice woman is selfish and playing God about whom is subject to rights and whom is not. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 12:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firsborn first off its AZAIRYIA...and secondly the unborn fetus has NO RIGHTS and should not have rights...it is NOT an individual person...AT ALL by any means. To give the fetus rights you supercede the womans rights which her life is already VIABLE. She needs to host to nuture her at all. My case in point.....YOU believe that it is wrong that is FINE...NO ONE is telling you not to believe that it is wrong..So don't have an abortion it's as simple as that. However it's not your place to make the decision for anyone else or say that someone else shouldn't have the right to make that choice. The person in the situation is the one that has deal with all if any consequences that comes from their actions...WHY people feel the need to make THAT their business is beyond me....YOU worry about getting yourself into heaven and let other's worry about themselves...It's NOT THAT difficult to do.. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 1:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Thats why I usually just call you AZ, Anyway who died and left you boss of rather babies have rights or not? Think about when the goverment and men said WOMAN had no rights. Did that set well with you? Well I guess that point is mute, as by the time you were born you DID have the right to vote amoung other things. YOU believe that your right in saying that babies should have no rights, NOR should they and sure that is YOUR opinion but that does not make it a fact that babies are not viable. And as you say, its NOT your decision to make a choice for someone else and that is what is happening here, all of these so called Viable Women are making a choice for a baby, call it fetus all you want, doesnt change the fact that IT IS LIFE! I dont have to worry about getting myself into heaven, its a done deal and why should you bring that up when in fact the post is about abortion? Are we having some doubts about our own ticket in the after life? |
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Date: 11/5/2002 1:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
PLUS the fact that so many of these so called un-viable BABIES that have been aborted were BORN alive! Just to be killed by the nice little doctor that preformed the abortion. Oh that fact must make these mothers that dont want a baby feel really proud. IF THEY dont want a baby, GET THERE WORKS REMOVED! |
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Date: 11/5/2002 1:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn I have absolutely NO DOUBTS about my ticket. I don't claim to be anything more than I am unlike some people that preach one thing and do another.....Again Dizzy I apologize that your debate got off topic...I will leave it alone now before I get myself into trouble... |
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Date: 11/5/2002 1:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Oh one more thing Firstborn? Who died and left me boss? No one. Who died and left you boss to determine what a woman should do when faced with a decision that has to do with her own body? |
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Date: 11/5/2002 1:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
WEll hon if you ever have the time I sure would like for you to clarify that statement about preaching one thing and doing another? As I dont believe that I do that and some examples would certainly be helpfull to me. I too dizzy will leave this discussion as AZ chooses to attack me instead of rationally debate the post. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 1:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn just WHERE did I attack you? |
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Date: 11/5/2002 1:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
You said::. I don't claim to be anything more than I am unlike some people that preach one thing and do another"" NOW that is trying to deflame my Character. Then you said::YOU worry about getting yourself into heaven and let other's worry about themselves..."" Or rather you said that first. YOU are bringing in my beliefs into this post, when no one else did. This post was not about what I believe as far as God goes, yet you choose to dig right in there and add that. See what your doing is trying to discredit my opinion on the basis that I believe in the Lord Jesus, so therefore I'm brainwashed and CANT possibly have a opinion of my own. And as I say the other comment clearly is trying to make me out as a liar. YOU say, let others worry about themselves, its not that difficult to do, well perhaps YOU should practice what you preach.Good day, I've given my opinions on the post and that is all that is required from me. If you have a fight, take it somewhere else. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 2:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Oh I see Firstborn because I brought God into the picture that automatically is an attack on you? I have YET to see ONE person on this site that is PRO-Life that does NOT base their reason for being so in their belief in God and that it is murder......And try taking a look at my replies all over the site when it comes to this topic...it is the same each and every place I have replied. I have always stated that as long as you are doing what you think is right and what is going to get you into heaven then fine so be it, let those in the situation worry about their way in.... Now you on the otherhand saw fit to take my comment as personal and then retort with how worried I was about my ticket into heaven. So let's stop pointing the finger at who is doing what here. My response to you was simple...and you take it however you mean it...I am not in the least bit worried about my ticket. I am who I am and I don't claim to be anything I am not unlike other people WHO do claim to be something they are not. If you took that personal that is all in your own mind. On the otherhand Firstborn I practice what I preach, so maybe you need to turn that finger and point in in your own direction.. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 2:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Whatever AZ, whatever |
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Date: 11/5/2002 3:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
You are so rude Aziarya(I dont really care how to say your name). If something has a future and you take it away from it that is murder or at best theft. Woman are made to REPRODUCE things happen to your body when you become pregnant its natural. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 3:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Just how am I rude Big Tex? |
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Date: 11/5/2002 3:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
By the way Big Tex thank you for informing me that as a woman my body goes through changes with pregnancy..I have had two children and you have had how many?...Thought so.. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 3:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Az, I am with you 200%. Kelly ther is nothing wrong with the way that I think, just because I CHOOSE not to be OWNED by the law, or by any man. Big T, you will make a WONDERFUL husband one day I am sure, she will be barefoot, pregnant, and probably would have been something wonderful if it hadn't been for all the cookin' and cleanin' and carrin' fer the yunguns'. You know what SADDENS me the most about Women who are PRO-LIFERS, they are willing to GIVE UP THIER BODIES, the very body that your GOD gave to you, to please the Male clergy in the Churches that ONCE LONG AGO represented God, and Christ. I have a news flash for all of you, they don't represent GOD anymore, they represent CASH. So go ahead, sell your body to those men. LET THEM RULE YOU, but not ME, NOT EVER. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 4:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
Enough with the adolescent dream world. I'll consider the points of men and women, not children. Unless they can prove that they act like an adult, which I haven't seen. Firstborn, I'm going to say this again: Christians, if you are true to your faith, then you must heed this: God has a plan, things happen, it's His plan, not yours. If a woman has an abortion, it is HIS will. You have no idea why, and you shouldn't ask. Argue all you want, but if you maintain a belief in HIM, then I will throw this comment out at you and disregard any further points you might take it upon yourself to make. As for the topic at hand, it's outright insane, not to mention morbid. 'Nough said... |
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Date: 11/5/2002 4:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Galleytuck, I beg to differ. IT IS NOT in Gods will, not the will of the God of creation. NOW maybe its in the will of the god of this world , satan in which so many dont think is real, but ITS not the plan of the God of Creation for women to run around killing babies. NOW if it were in his will I dont think he would have said thou shalt not kill. NOW I'm sure your going to say, well God had people killed in the bible, or some such thing, however people that were killed in the bible was for doing something morally or physically wrong. Killing babies IS NOT Gods will. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 4:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Last time I checked FB, no one was killing babies, they were removing FETUSES from the body of a woman. A FETUS IS NOT A CHILD. There is no way for anyone to budge on the belief of whether a Fetus is a living thig or not. NO ONE WILL BUDGE on that view, so lets just look at it this way. A CHILD can breath, eat, and more or less sustain life without an umbilical cord. ANY living breathing mammal can sustain life without a Host. So if a fetus can't do that, HOW can you think it is a living thing??? |
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Date: 11/5/2002 7:06:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9130
Ah, I knew this would make for a great debate |
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Date: 11/5/2002 8:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
MissC: Ah I see your reading that polically correct garbage again. Last time I LOOKED, a baby was a baby was a baby. Just because some scientist made up this word FETUS for an unborn baby does in no way take away the fact that the end result is a BABY. And some babies that are born at first CAN NOT sustain life without life support to begin with, oxygen and lots of tubes, YET they live to grow and maintain great lives. I wonder how many here on usm may have had that start in life that is NOW saying that children like that, BABIES are NOT viable? |
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Date: 11/5/2002 9:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 15228
Nope, can't have it both ways Az..It we are pro-life, you are pro-abortion. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 9:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 15228
by the way...you could also call me "pro-choice", I believe woman have lots of choices, just say NO to sex if you're to stupid to figure out birth contrl, adoption, all sorts of birthcontrol options..see...I can give choices to. |
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Date: 11/5/2002 10:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
LOL at KELLY, right on girl!! |
Date: 11/5/2002 10:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 15033
When I was in High School, there was a jar with a 6 month old fetus in embalming fluid sitting in home economics class. I used to stare at the poor little thing many, many times and wonder how anyone could put a real child in a jar for people to stare at after it had died. It was so perfect, and peaceful looking. I wanted so badly to steal it and give it a buriel. It's little face still haunts me. Do I think all aborted fetuses should have a buriel? I don't know. Most of them are done within the first trimester, so when the suction device gets done with them, there isn't much left but a bloody liquid. The older fetuses could have a funeral though maybe...Any woman that carries a child for 5-7 months and then aborts it should face what death looks like on an innocent child she chose to kill. JMHO.  |
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Date: 11/5/2002 11:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Amen thunderhead. Once they see a whole BABY, at 5-7 months, that they have aborted perhaps they will see that they have messed up big time! My sisters were born at seven months. TWO of my nephews were born at six months. SURE they were small, but they still are alive today. THEY are complete human beings at this stage and It makes me sick to think that any woman could have an abortion in the first place, LET alone, after those BABIES are this far along that they could live just fine out of its mothers womb. LORDY I hate to say MOTHER as a real MOTHER would not do this horrible horrible thing. |
Date: 11/6/2002 3:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 8090
No way....waste of time and money...it's like having a memorial service for a broken chicken egg...come on, give me a break!  |
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Date: 11/6/2002 5:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Okay Kelly if you say so, not going to argue the topic any longer, no point in continuing to go in circles about it. Believe what you like and I shall believe what I like.. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 5:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
I would also hope that the statement "you're stupid" wasn't directed at me but was just a generalized statement |
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Date: 11/6/2002 5:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
People that have "abortions" at 5-7 months along are the people that have them because there is something wrong with the baby or they will die if the pregnancy continues. They aren't you typical I don't want to be pregnant so I am going to have an abortion type of people. |
Date: 11/6/2002 7:02:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
I am not going to look at the replies before I reply. I am just going to reply then I will look at them. I DO think there should be funerals for aborted fetuses if that is what the PARENTS want. It is THEIR decision. It was THEIR child. No one knows the reason behind every abortion. You don't know if the child was unwanted or not. What if the fetus was already dying inside the mother and was a threat to the mother's life? What if it was an etopic pregnancy? There are to many what if's in the situation. I think the decison should be left to the parents. It is their grief that needs to be worked through. No one should take that right away from them.  |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
I disagree AZ: I know of people that have had them at that stage because of different reason. Its sick. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:29:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Women who have induced abortions at 16 gestational weeks or later (5.8% of U.S. abortions) are a special population according to a survey by the Alan Guttmacher Institute of 420 women seeking abortions at various abortion facilities throughout the United States. According to the survey, these women are significantly more likely to be teenagers under the age of 18 (Table 1), black women (Table 2), unemployed women, or women covered by Medicaid. Abortions at 16 gestational weeks or more are also more apt to be performed if the reason was possible fetal health problems, if the womans parents wanted her to have an abortion, or if the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest. Women were significantly less likely to have a later abortion if they were age 30 or older, if they had no religious affiliation, if they were having health problems, or if their husband or partner wanted them to have an abortion. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
Well I was all prepared to let this go, but I just wanted to point out something on Late Term abortions since that seems to be where this is heading now. This is my reply from a different debate but it applies to this.........Many mothers make the heartbreaking decision to have a late term abortion due to the baby having serious medical problems, not just a simple disease, maybe you should watch a unbiased news show like 60 minutes. It actually gave both sides to the story of late term aborions. These are NOT elective. NO doctor does this just because the mother does not want the child. There has to be an extreme medical reason why. I watched a 60 minutes program about 2 weeks ago specifically about late term abortions. One mother made the heartbreaking decision to have her baby aborted. It was a late term abortion, it was in the third trimester. THE BABIES BRAIN GREW OUTSIDE HER HEAD. She had no brain contained within her skull, it was on the outside of her skull and it was bigger than her skull. Now can you rationally think this child could have survived? The little girl was given a 0% survival rate. The mother was heartbroken. She did have a funeral for the little girl and yes she even had photos taken with her family. SHE LOVED THIS CHILD. This woman was courageous enough to testify in front of senate about Late Term Abortions. WHAT GIVES ANYONE THE RIGHT TO SAY THIS MOTHER DID NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO GIVE THIS LITTLE GIRL A PROPER FUNERAL? Before anyone of us can judge another person you would need to go through the exact situation of the person you are judging, and I for one would NEVER want to be in that situation. I thought you were supposed to love everyone and not judge anyone. Humankind would be much better off if we followed that simple rule.................. |
Date: 11/6/2002 7:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 16069
Isnt it the parents CHOICE?  |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
The 1987 Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI) survey found that difficulty in making arrangements for the abortion was an important reason for delay. This included time to raise money, going to more than one facility, arranging transportation or not knowing where to go.(3) Another study found that women frequently waited until the last minute before seeking a pregnancy test because they did not want to admit being pregnant until it was almost too late to obtain an abortion.A history of irregular periods was found to be the strongest single predictor for women seeking late abortions in a multiple regression study of Washington D.C. women, although much of the variation in gestational age at the time of abortion was not explained by the analysis.(6) This uncertainty is presumably related to the tendency of women seeking late term abortions to wait longer to seek confirmation of the pregnancy. Another study found that not knowing soon enough the gestational age of her pregnancy was an important factor among women obtaining abortions at 16 gestational age or more,Researchers have found that women who obtain second trimester abortions do not use contraceptives, or use contraceptives to a lesser degree compared to women obtaining first trimester abortions. Researchers at the Yale University School of Medicine concluded that, "available studies suggest that unprotected coitus correlates with delay in seeking an abortion. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn first of all I don't buy it and secondly they obtained the abortion illegally and would still happen if abortion was made illegal...SO WHAT difference does it make? |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
So basically what I'm saying is a person can defend abortion all they want to and defend a persons "choice" to have one all they want to. What it boils down to is that its a selfish act by women that dont have sense enough to use protection when running around playing Jezebells. IF THEY ARE going to play the game, then they SHOULD be smart enough to avoid pregnancy and that UNWANTED BABY! How hard is that to do? |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Of course you dont buy it AZ, even tho studies and result have been did on trimester abortions. What difference does it make? Well I'm sure it makes a lot of difference to the unborn BABY. AND if women had to go back to doing back woods abortions in secret, then MAYBE, just MAYBE they would think about how NOT to get pregnant! I mean we dont live in the middle ages anymore and there are many many many ways to keep from getting pregnant. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
THESE are BABIES that could make it outside the womb, IF the selfish mother allowed it. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
So Firstborn why did you have your abortion? You know the one you told me wasn't really an abortion because on the hospital papers it didn't say that? I remember the debate, I just can't remember the reason you gave. Can you refresh my memory? You weren't one of those women you quoted as "selfish act by women that dont have sense enough to use protection when running around playing Jezebells. IF THEY ARE going to play the game, then they SHOULD be smart enough to avoid pregnancy and that UNWANTED BABY!" were you??? No I didn't think so but guess what NEITHER ARE "ALL" THE OTHER WOMEN WHO GET ABORTIONS, WERE YOU IN THEIR BEDS WHEN THEY GOT PREGNANT????? HOW DO YOU KNOW???? DID YOU SEE THEM NOT USE ANY BIRTH CONTROL?????? hmmmm tell my daughter's biological father that, he wore a condemn and GUESS WHAT???? I have a living breathing 8 year old as proof that birth control is NOT foolproof................ |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn here is an unbiased idea...grab the phone book...call planned parenthood..and EVERY single private OBGYN's office in your local area and tell them that you are pregnant and seeking an abortion. They will tell you exactly how far along you can be in order for them to assist you. Ask them what the procedures are and what steps are followed in the decision. I will bet my life on the fact that every place you talk to will tell you that they will set up an initial consultation, which is done to determine the situation and make sure that you are secure in your decision (although you are free to back out at anytime) Then they schedule a work up, blood work and ultrasound to determine exactly how far along you are in your pregnancy and whether you are under the guidelines of not only the law but in some cases their own set guidelines. Many private physicians will not preform one after a certain number of weeks because of their own issues of morality. For example my OBGYN will not do one after 4 weeks, but planned parenthood here will do one up to 11 weeks. Then after they have determined all of that, they will then schedule the procedure. The only places that you are going to find that could care less how far along you are and how you feel about the situation are the corrupt ones that are most likely to do the abortions above and beyond the standards that the law has set. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn and those ways would be? Oh you mean chemical birthcontrol? In other words home abortion on a monthly basis? Makes sense to me, or something like a spermicide or a condom that has a high failure rate. Unwanted pregnancy happens and will ALWAYS happen, it's a fact of life Firstborn... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Women that blame pregnancy soley on the women really have issues... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
LMAO hmm maybe I should spell condom right, hey it's early and I need caffeine............... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
In the end this still all comes down to the same thing. Abortion is LEGAL, get over it. You don't believe in it, that is fine no one is telling you that you have to. Simple solution don't get an abortion and mind your own business as to what other people are doing with their fertility. I don't understand the confusion... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
LOL at my worst nightmare. I didnt have an abortion. I was packing twins and lost one. You people can say and mimic the political correct garbage all you want. YOU can quote their little words that say that a miscarriage is an spontaneouse abortion all you want. That doesnt wash with me or anyone else that has had a miscarriage. So peddle it somewhere else. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 7:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
Oh FB, didn't you recognize me??? It's R-A-C-Q-U-I-E, LMAO........oh and we know the truth now don't we . By the way if I'm not mistaken you had to have it removed by DNC, THAT *HONEY* IS AN ABORTION Medical term you know, oh maybe YOU don't know, you didn't seem to before......... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:00:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
and FB, I HAVE HAD a miscarriage, GUESS WHAT???? It says SPONTANEOUS ABORTION right there on the papers, LMAO. It is a MEDICAL term not a p.c. one. Ask a REAL doctor about it, I am sure he could fill you in.......... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:00:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
So darlin, I WANTED my Babies, didn't stop trying to get pregnant because I WANTED my babies. So lets not even go there with the you had an abortion bull crap. AZ: Perhaps some doctors will NOT do an abortion after a certain time but you have to have your head in the sand not to know that there are plenty that will. I'm sure all this stuff the researchers have brought up, MUST after all be bogas as it doesnt fit into your thinking of what abortion is or what or how women and doctors do it. Sure AZ, unwanted pregnancies do happen NOT all birth control works. I wasnt ready for a second child at the time I got pregnant with my daughter sue, sure I wanted more babies later, but not so close as she was, however I did NOT have her sucked from my body just because the source of protection didnt work. I dont base it solely on women az, ,but you say, that its a woman choice rather to have a baby or not, and so IF ITS HER CHOICE then it should be her CHOICE to make sure she doesnt get that way. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
God, arent ya'll glad I'm back? Whom would you have to argue with? LOL |
Date: 11/6/2002 8:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
LOL, yes actually I kinda miss Hugo too  but that is a different story. Off to the store BB for more in a little while |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
No my worst nightmare I did see if was you, but I seem to like this part of your tag better. LOL Anyway, NO, I did not have to have the D&C because of the baby being there as there were only parts of the baby, the rest had came out when I hemmoraged. Apparently the baby was not all together formed and yes part of it did stay in and that is what they found when they did the d&C because I could NOT stop bleeding after five months. NOW perhaps in this day and time, they the good doctors have decided to use the word Spontaneouse Abortion, in relationship to a D&C as they come up with NEW medical terms for things all the time. AND if you want to call yours an abortion, you just go right ahead. I'll call mine what the Doctor at that time said it was, A MISCARRIAGE. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
MISCARRIAGE: NOUN: 1. The premature expulsion of a nonviable fetus from the uterus. Also called spontaneous abortion. NOTICE it says ALSO called. '''''spontaneous''' ADJECTIVE: 1. Happening or arising without apparent external cause; SYNONYMS: spontaneous, impulsive, instinctive, involuntary, automatic These adjectives mean acting, reacting, or happening without apparent forethought or prompting. Spontaneous applies to what arises naturally rather than resulting from external constraint or stimulus: SO ::: What happened with my miscarried child was NOT brought about by something that I WILLINGLY did. So keep trying hon. Its not working. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
Glad you like the new tag FB, seems to fit me better now ...........actually no need to keep trying, my point is proven no matter how much you try to double talk around it .......... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:24:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
Oh and it is okay you that you can't type RACQUIE, some people just don't know their keyboards well enough it's all good, hugs......... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:24:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Gee Hon and I was just thinking the same thing, that my point had been proven reguardless of how politically correct you want to be in using words that the NOW politically correct people want to use. Thanks for letting me prove my point and as forrest gump says, " have a nice day" |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Fb so do you want a medal for having your second child and not aborting her? Did we forget that I also got pregnant AGAIN unmarried when my daughter was 15 months old. Guess what I kept my son but that in no way give me permission to be a martyr and tell another woman that she HAS to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want. Furthermore, I will tell you one thing, those abortions that DO happen illegally because a doctor is money hungry you KNOW were preformed on the WELL to do of our society that are worried about nothing more that tarnishing their golden images. They weren't obtained by a desperate teenager that has no job, no education, no family support and no support whatsoever from the brain cell that donated the sperm. Which we know from statistics are the highest age group of those women obtaining abortions. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 8:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
Oh FB "sweetie" an abortion is an abortion, no matter how you want to pretty it up so it doesn't look like one. Kinda makes it hard to condemn them when you yourself has had one doesn't it? Or maybe it's the opposite with you? Maybe you are just trying to ease a guilty conscience. Hmmm interesting thought ....My what a contradiction you seem to be......... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 9:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
LOL Racquie: I can type very well thank you. AZ, no, I dont want a medal, I think however I do have my opinion on things same as you. You dont like mine and I certainly dont like yours. Racquie: Miscarriage is still a miscarriage no matter how you want to dirty it up. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 9:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
That's right Fb and I think we established that 50 comments ago.....LOL |
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Date: 11/6/2002 9:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Ya we did AZ and its been nice sparing with ya'll but I think all that can be said has basically been said on this post. However I do have one more thing to add and then Im done. racquie, I remember a while back, and correct me if I'm wrong as I may be thinking of someone else. You said that hurt your feelings when someone said that your spontaneouse abortion was in fact murder as of course you dont see it that way. So just remember that it also hurts my feelings when someone calls my miscarriage , a baby that I wanted badly, an abortion, when I dont in fact believe in abortion. Well enough said. Ya'll have a good day. Looking forward to the next debate. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 9:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
Perception FB Perception, I view my opinion as correct, you view your opinion as correct. Will you change my view? Obviously not, you haven't in over the year I have been here. Will I change your views? Obviously not I haven't done so either. So believe as you will and I will continue to believe as I will and we shall always debate on this............. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 9:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 38474
No FB, I didn't say that, what I did say bothered me was the way everyone was lumping women who have had abortions as selfish, irresponsible little tarts, who just want to have fun but don't want the responsibility if they get pregnant. THAT BOTHERS ME!!!! That is NOT the truth, and I am evidence of that..........THAT IS WHAT BOTHERED ME.............. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 9:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Then perhaps I did get my statements wrong on whom said what and I didn't want to take the time going throw all those old post. Nope I think were at a stalemate as neither of us will change our views. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 1:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 8090
God, now spontaneous abortions and ABORTION??? It's called a MISCARRIAGE, and it happens quite often, and is VERY difficult on the parents. I really don't think we should be so called "debating" topics such as this on USM, due to it turning out into a 100+ comment fight...(usually between 2 or 3 people). It is an "ugly" topic, and most the time, you are only going to get "ugly" comments from most of the people who feel strongly about the subject. I thought the Admins. opposed this subject in debates anyways?? |
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Date: 11/6/2002 1:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 38474
Not that I have ever been told Dumb Blonde, I have always debated it and will continue to do so until I am shown a rule regarding it as being unallowed. I will not be silenced as long as I am obeying the rules and I had a monitor check EVERY one of my replies. She said they were fine. Sorry if you don't like them but I will not stop replying unless that monitor tells me something is inappropriate, which to her they were not. So they stand........... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 3:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
All this talk of Politically Correct, and So and So said this and this Doctor said that, and the Dictionary this, and the bible that.... HERe is the bottom line. MY body, is my own, YOUR body is your own, if you are gainst Abortion, DON'T HAVE ONE! If you are pro-choice, well at least SOME of us are living in this century. KEEP YOUR LAWS< RELIGION AND PERSONAL Morals OFF OF MY BODY. If I see fit to have a brain tomour removed,(BTW a brain tumour, like a mass of CELLS) or a mole, or a cancer, you wouldn't tell me that I couldn't. SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE??? It is not like I am taking a child off the street and commiting murder. I am am removing a collection of CELLS from within MY BODY. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 3:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 38474
*stands up applauding wildly for Miss C* EXACTLY, thanks for putting it so directly and correctly, I couldn't agree with you more........... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 3:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Thanks Raqquie |
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Date: 11/6/2002 4:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
MISS C: IF that makes you feel better about murdering a child, then HON you just go on believing that little white lie. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 4:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
A "Lie" FB is a statement which holds no Truths. So now a fetus has no cells??? You mean it is a mass of what, "Magic"??? Is a baby made of magical rays of sunshine??? Lets be grown up here people... If you say that a fetus is a baby, then would that make Sperm a baby??? or an unfertilized egg? Maybe I should stop eating eggs now???? |
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Date: 11/6/2002 4:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Is this a DEBATE POST or the Grammies. Is there a prize for the most DRAMATIC exit??? |
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Date: 11/6/2002 4:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 38474
LMAO @ Miss C, seems some actually take things a little to personal, hmmm interesting don't ya think? LOL........... |
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Date: 11/6/2002 5:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
WEll i'm out of this debate nowone will take my opinions seriously because i'm not a nineteen year old pregnant liberal women. Well anyways Keep on keepin on Firstborn. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 6:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
In closing, (since no one but Racquie and I seem to have what it takes to stand up for what you believe in till the last man has "fallen" has anyone read this post >>> Baby Dies - Tortured by Parents...................<<< THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU TAKE ABORTIONS AWAY!!! Only it happens MORE MORE AND MORE OFTEN, and gets MORE MORE AND MORE GRUESOME! |
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Date: 11/6/2002 6:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 38474
EXACTLY Miss C, this is precisely what we keep pointing out but no one seems to read it ....wish some eyes would just OPEN UP A LITTLE.......I totally agree with you Miss C.......huge hugs |
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Date: 11/6/2002 6:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Thank You Racquie, (((HUGE HUGS))) Now this is the way Debates should end. I only wish that people with a different point of view would realize this was a debate. that is all. People made different statements and stood up for what they believed in, and for the most part we all did a good job at it. So I send my thanks to all of you for a great debate, and for Dizzy my Sis, for giving us yet, another GREAT debate post. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 6:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
The only reason I left is because this debate was dead and It was going nowhere. I still firmly believe that any woman that has an abortion (unless it's life threating) is an irresponsible selfish murderer. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 6:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
You guy's should open up just as much as the next person! |
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Date: 11/6/2002 6:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Big Tex, at no point in time have I told anyone here that they are not welcome to converse with me or have thier own views. I never called anyone a "Selfish Murderer", so what opening up do I need to do??? I am not ANGRY with anyone, and my feelings never once got hurt? I don't hate YOU or FB, or KELLY, or ANYONE JUST because they are Pro-Lifers. But because I am PRO-Choice, I am evil. Do you understand??? |
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Date: 11/6/2002 6:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 16538
I wasn't really directing my post directly to you sorry if you took it that way. |
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Date: 11/6/2002 9:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 15033
Sheesh! I come back and find this...hehe!! I just wanted to say that back when I was in high school, um, around '74, it was acceptable for underage woman to get parents consent for a close to full term pregnancy abortion...because they didn't want it...thus the fetus in the jar, to show how sad it was and to make us think before we went around having sex..."sex" period. In our town, it was a big thing at the time to promote saving one's self for marriage rather than fall victim to an unwanted child or else what was in the jar. Next...I had a DNC, call it an abortion if you like...the baby died inside me at 4-1/2 months due to a detached placenta. Yep, only one thing you can do if they die in there. I can also say I had many pregnancies where I lost the fetuses in the first month and a half, naturally, all were the results of being married and using protection...you name the type, I got pregnant with it. So yeah, much of what was said up there ^^ is true. Thank you for your time. :-D |
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Date: 11/7/2002 5:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
If people are pro-life then they must also not abort a child of a rapist, or a child of incest. If we take it further then, even if having the child will threaten the life of the mother it would still be killing. There should be no exceptions. A life is a life as you say. Which do you choose - your life or your child's. I am for freedom of choice for women. The choice to have or have not. There should be no legislation which takes away that choice. If your religion forbids abortion, then so be it. Abortion is not, even by law, murder. To answer the real debate - the choice of whether or not a mother wants to have a grave for her aborted fetus is, again, up to her. There are many reasons why women abort, and they are not all to do with inconvenience. |
| Date: 11/7/2002 3:36:00 PM ( Admin ) Sound like an arguement about conventional law verses what's right. The law doesn't determine what is right only what is acceptable to the majority. It has not been determined absolutly when a fetus is a person, even though by "Law" there is a definition, it still isn't a fact. The question is, what if the fetus is a person, with thoughts, emotions, desires. Is anyone so knowledgable that they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt when a fetus is a person and when it is not. The real issue here is what if the "Law" is wrong and a fetus at some stage is a real person, then it's a matter of killing an innocent person as a matter of convenience for another person. My opinion is, if we don't absolutly know if a person is alive or not we should give the benefit of the doubt to it's a life and thus try to ensure it's right to exist as much as we would anyones. If we would run into a burning building to save potential persons from certain death then we should defend the rights of a fetus as though it were a person and fight for it to live. |
| Date: 11/7/2002 3:50:00 PM ( Admin ) These are apples vs. oranges arguments. The law decides what is legal to do without legal ramifications. The law (or moral majority) tries to decided what is "Good" or "Best" considering the perceived circumstances. The opposite of good is not evil it's bad. The opposite of right is wrong and the opposite of Evil is rightousness. An act can be "good" and "evil" at the same time. An act can be "bad" and be "right" at the same time. The arguement here is what is bad, wrong or evil?. |
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Date: 11/7/2002 7:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 42792
I am pasting this reply from an other site where I replied to a similar debate. Whatever you all want to argue about is fine with me but I think you should use the proper terminology. If you are going to debate, have the decency to get your facts straight. No one can prove whether abortion is right or wrong. It is a personal OPINION however, LEGAL abortion is NOT murder! Murder is not a term to be used so freely. >>>>For those of you who seem to be unaware of what "murder" is and how it differs from killing, in general, this is for you. BTW...we are all killers. If you have ever swatted a bug or ingested an antibiotic, you are a killer. Now to the definition of murder and the majority of the legal foundation and ultimate decision in Roe vs. Wade, excluding personal affidavits. MURDER, crim. law. This, one of the most important crimes that can be committed against individuals, has been variously defined. Hawkins defines it to be the wilful killing of any subject whatever, with malice aforethought, whether the person slain shall be an Englishman or a foreigner. B. 1, c. 13, s. 3. Russell says, murder is the killing of any person under the king's peace, with malice prepense or aforethought, either express or implied by law. 1 Rus. Cr. 421. And Sir Edward Coke, 3 Inst. 47, defines or rather describes this offence to be, " when a person of sound mind and discretion, unlawfully killeth any reasonable creature in being, and under the king's peace, with malice aforethought either express or implied." 2. This defnition, which has been adopted by Blackstone, 4 Com. 195; Chitty, 2 Cr. Law, 724; and others, has been severely and perhaps justly criticised. What, it has been asked, are sound memory and understanding? What has soundness of memory to do with the act; be it ever so imperfect, how does it affect the guilt? If discretion is necessary, can the crime ever be committed, for, is it not the highest indiscretion in a man to take the life of another, and thereby expose his own? If the person killed be an idiot or a new born infant, is he a reasonable creature? Who is in the king's peace? What is malice aforethought? Can there be any malice afterthought? Livingst. Syst. of Pen. Law; 186. 3. According to Coke's definition there must be, lst. Sound mind and memory in the agent. By this is understood there must be a will, (q. v.) and legal discretion. (q. v.) 2. An actual killing, but it is not necessary that it should be caused by direct violence; it is sufficient if the acts done apparently endanger. life, and eventually fatal. Hawk. b. 1, c. 31, s. 4; 1 Hale, P. C. 431; 1 Ashm. R. 289; 9 Car. & Payne, 356; S. C. 38 E. C. L. R. 152; 2 Palm. 545. 3. The party killed must have been a reasonable being, alive and in the king's peace. To constitute a birth, so as to make the killing of a child murder, the whole body must be detached from that of the mother; but if it has come wholly forth, but is still connected by the umbilical chord, such killing will be murder. 2 Bouv. Inst. n. 1722, note. Foeticide (q. v.) would not be such a killing; he must have been in rerum natura. 4. Malice, either express or implied. It is this circumstance which distiuguishes murder from every description of homicide. Vide art. Malice. 4. In some of the states, by legislative enactments, murder has been divided into degrees. In Pennsylvania, the act of April 22, 1794, 3 Smith's Laws, 186, makes "all murder which shall be perpetrated by means of poison, or by lying in wait, or by any other kind of wilful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or which shall be committed in the perpetration or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, rape, robbery, or burglary, shall be deemed murder of the first degree; and all other kinds of murder shall be deemed murder of the second degree; and the jury before whom any person indicted for murder shall be tried, shall, if they find the person guilty thereof, ascertain in their verdict, whether it be murder of the first or second degree; but if such person shall be convicted by confession, the court shall proceed by examination of witnesses, to determine the degree of the crime, and give sentence accordingly. Many decisions have been made under this act to which the reader is referred: see Whart. Dig. Criminal Law, h. t. 5. The legislature of Tennessee has adopted the same distinction in the very words of the act of Pennsylvania just cited. Act of 1829, 1 Term. Laws, Dig. 244. Vide 3 Yerg. R. 283; 5 Yerg. R. 340. 6. Virginia has adopted the same distinction. 6 Rand. R. 721. Vide, generally, Bac. Ab. h. t.; 15 Vin. Ab. 500; Com. Dig. Justices, M 1, 2; Dane's Ab. Index, h. t.; Hawk. Index, h. t.; 1 Russ. Cr. b. 3, c. 1; Rosc. Cr. Ev. h. t. Hale, P. C. Index, h. t.; 4 Bl. Com. 195; 2 Swift's Syst. Index, h. t.; 2 Swift's Dig. Index, h. t.; American Digests, h. t.; Wheeler's C. C. Index, h. t.; Stark. Ev. Index, h. t.; Chit. Cr. Law, Index, h. t.; New York Rev. Stat. part 4, c. 1, t. 1 and 2.  |
Date: 11/8/2002 2:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 35114
I'd say no. If the mother believed that the fetus was a baby then she wouldn't have aborted it. If she was FORCED to (don't ask me how that'd work) against her will. Then should she decide to have a funeral, yes I don't see why not.  |
Date: 11/9/2002 10:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 18527
If I had a miscarriage I would want a memorial service for my child...  |
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