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Date: 11/10/2002 11:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
personally i think "to each thier own" i don't believe in it all i don't believe in god or anything in the bible.. but that's just me... "to each thier own"  |
Date: 11/10/2002 11:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 57653
I think a man named Jesus lived but I don't think he was the son of a god. I'm not betting my eternity on the "off-chance" that I'm wrong, since I'm NOT wrong. My personal truth IS the truth...as is yours.  |
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Date: 11/10/2002 11:29:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 61913
Personal truth is irrelevant. I say gravity doesn't exist. That's my personal truth. FACT is...regardless what I believe, I hit the pavement at 90 miles an hour. Gravity exists regardless of whether or not I believe in it. As does Jesus Christ. What is this compelling proof you have to be so completely SURE that He wasn't the Son of God? |
Date: 11/10/2002 11:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 61763
there has been many people through history that has been like Jesus, why should everyone have to believe in just him then?  |
| Date: 11/10/2002 11:33:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 Tell me one religious or spiritual icon that said they would die and come back and actually did it. (Other than Jesus Christ) |
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Date: 11/10/2002 11:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 61763
Personal truth is something you work out for yourself, you must have a serious problem if you can't see the influence of gravity. |
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Date: 11/10/2002 11:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 61763
There has been many people who have die and came back to life and weren't even religious, does that make them the son of god? |
| Date: 11/10/2002 11:39:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 That was a hypothetical situation. Would it make you feel better if I'd said, "I COULD say gravity doesn't exist."? |
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Date: 11/10/2002 11:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 61763
Well you'd still need to explain what causes the gravity like effects. |
| Date: 11/10/2002 11:44:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 The difference is that Jesus said he would do it and did it. A quick two-minute near-death experience can hardly be compared to a) claiming you're the son of God, b) predicting you will die and come back, and c) doing just that. |
| Date: 11/10/2002 11:49:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 You circumvent the discussion about the validity of Jesus Christ as the saviour of the world with a tangent about gravity? That's sort of like careening off a 300 foot cliff and squabbling over who's not wearing their seatbelt. |
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Date: 11/10/2002 11:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 61763
Actually you brought up the whole gravity issue as a poor excuse to prove Jesus. |
| Date: 11/10/2002 11:59:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 No, I brought up a point about "personal truth" using gravity as an example. I could vehemently not believe in gravity -- that would classify as my own "personal truth", but regardless of what I wholeheartedly believed, gravity would still exist. How about air? I could not believe in air but that would exist. I could not believe in flowers or refrigerators. Yet lo and behold, all around. Without my personal stamp of approval i.e. "personal truth". |
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Date: 11/11/2002 12:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 61763
These things are obviously in existence as you can see them everyday and hopefully work out yourself they exist. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 12:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 61763
So anyone with common sense would believe they exist |
| Date: 11/11/2002 12:16:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 Common sense is fleeting. Emotions are fleeting. "Personal truth" can change within five to ten years (or days). THE Truth resides outside the realm of "common sense", "personal truth", or whatever else you want to call it. Now I've just given you pieces of data that prove Jesus Christ is who he says he is. What is your proof that is so solid and concrete that you would wager an eternity in Hell on its validity? |
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Date: 11/11/2002 12:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 61763
You're merely stateing your "personal truth" that Jesus exists. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 12:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 61763
Osiris-Dionysus too healed people, claimed to be the son of god, died and came back but he pre-dates Jesus. You what people to believe Jesus over him? |
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Date: 11/11/2002 12:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 53052
well gravity unlike christ is not all around you and feel it every day with a reaction... it's not something you can really argue because if you drop something it will fall you can't compare something written many years ago in a book to something you can obviously see today.. if you drop somethign it will fall.. you can drop ANYTHING and it will fall... so there is your proof of gravity... |
Date: 11/11/2002 1:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 23610
The problem with a debate like this is that there really is no proof one way or another. All we have are the writings of certain people who supposedly were there at the time of these events....however, these writings are close to a hundred years after the supposed fact. Not to mention the manipulation of the "truth" by political and religions leaders in the 4th century when organizing the Christian religion into one belief system by picking and choosing which beliefs and writings they would accept. Therefore, it is up to each person to decide for themself what they believe to be true and to follow their heart. No one has solid proof of any real truth regarding Jesus and his life only heresay and politically organized dogma.  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 1:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 23610
I would like to ask the author what part of what you have written do you consider "proof" of Jesus? I re-read your post and your comments and I do see opinion but do not see "proof". What is it that you are calling proof? As for Julius Caesar's existance. I think that the reason that that is more accepted is because there is historical documentation in many different places regarding Caesar. Not in one location nor by biased parties. Another point would be that much of the documentation of Caesar was done at the time that Caesar actually lived rather than a century later. Certainly, if there were real "proof" regarding Jesus Christ then there would not be the debate regarding his life as there would be documentation to use in such a debate. |
Date: 11/11/2002 5:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 10146
For all those that say Jesus is not to be believed in, and the Bible has no truth to it. Tell me why today, the world is both seeing, and feeling the things the Bible has been prophesying about the worst time of Trouble the world has ever seen or will ever see. It is Here materializing before you very eyes, If you will read what is posted in the News section of USM. Yet now that it is comming to the final head with intence speed. You still will say you do not believe in Jesus and his words of Warning.  |
Date: 11/11/2002 5:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Like author #61763 said about the god, Osiris; there were MANY gods (predating Christ) who claimed to have been born of a virgin birth; claimed to have been crucified; claim to have rose from the dead and claimed to be the "saviour" of the world. From India, from Persia, from Greece, Tibet....many places, came mythical tales about these gods and their "walking on water", "healing the sick" and several "Flood" stories, "miracles & magic".....ah, studying ancient MYTHS such as these, ALL...is the most compelling evidence for ME, that the "jesus is saviour" story is NOTHING MORE THAN ANOTHER MYTH!. Christianity is just another religion, out of many. NO ONE (from the Christian stand point) WILL EVER REPLY TO THIS, and address this: How can there be so many gods who claimed all those same things; how can there be so many SIMILAR stories (most had different names or varied endings); so many different gods making the same claims???  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 5:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Among the life generating gods were: Vishnu, Osiris, Zeus, Priapus, Adonis, Bacchus, Saturn, Apollo, Baal, Moloch, Jehovah; and more. The religions of Judaism, Christianity and Mohammedanism are a blending of the poetical and philosophical poems of Homer & Hesiod, embellished by the creations of the imagination, which were the religious texbooks of the ancient Greeks. The earliest records of all nations religions are more or less mythical. Nothing great has been established which does not rest on a legend. The only culprit in such cases is the humanity which is willing to be deceived. Christianity arose out of a mythical and "miracle" working age. Everything was attested to some sort of "miracle" because EVERYONE BELIEVED IN MIRACLES and DEMANDED THEM. |
Date: 11/11/2002 5:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 35720
You're narrow-minded. Let people believe what they want.  |
Date: 11/11/2002 6:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 45551
See, the thing with the cros is another thing that doesnt make sence, if he was there for only 6 hours he could not of been dead. It takes somewhere around 22-27 hours for a person to die in that manner. i wont argue the fact that a person named jesus did exist, he did, but he was just a normal man.  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
Thinker writes:"NO ONE (from the Christian stand point) WILL EVER REPLY TO THIS, and address this: How can there be so many gods who claimed all those same things; how can there be so many SIMILAR stories (most had different names or varied endings); so many different gods making the same claims???" ----------------------Because if you carefully examine these myths, you will find that NONE of the stories ***NONE*** of them predate Christianity. Oh, the RELIGIOUS FIGURE predates Christianity, but the STORIES THAT SHOW PARALLEL TO THE CHRIST STORY ****DOES NOT****. Perhaps the best EXAMPLE is Mithraism. The popular notion is that since worship of Mithra predates Christianity by several centuries, and that Mithric worship included ceremonies and beliefs that were similar to Christian ceremonies and beliefs, that Christianity copied from Mithraism. Nothing could be further from the truth, because, as the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies noted back in the 1970's. "The oldest record of a god named Mithra appears as a deity invoked in a treaty dated 1400 BC; thereafter he is one of several Indo-Iranian gods, and also appears as one who represents the concept of fidelity, and who was responsible also for bringing rain, vegetation and health. A little later in Aryan history, he became more of a warrior, but when Zoroastrianism came along, Mithra was reduced to serving as mediator between Ohrmazd and Ahriman, the good and bad gods of Zoroastrian dualism. He became one of a group of seven lesser gods who served higher deities and was assigned the duties of bringing demons to hell and souls to Paradise. This is the origin of Mithra prior to being imported into the Roman world. It bears no resemblance to Roman Mithra cult that later came into existence. The major reason why no Mithraic influence on first-century Christianity is possible is the timing: it's all wrong! The flowering of Roman Mithraism occurred 100 years after the close of the New Testament canon, much too late for it to have influenced anything that appears in the New Testament. Moreover, no monuments for the cult can be dated earlier than A.D. 90-100, and even this dating is generous." -------None, and I mean ***NONE***, of the alleged similarities are found in the Mithraic worship in Iran or India that preceded its importation into the Roman world, and in fact the Roman Mithra has more similarities with Greek gods than with the Indo-Iranian Mithra. Chronological difficulties, then, make the possibility of a Mithraic influence on early Christianity extremely improbable. Certainly, there remains no credible evidence for such an influence; if anything, it seems that Mithraism copied from Christianity in it's competition for the souls of the ancient world.------------ Most of the popular contemporary works that continue to perpetuate these myths use references to a scholar named Franz Cumont, who worked with the idea that Mithraic belief and customs of worship was continuous from it's earliest history up into the Roman period. ------------ The problem was that Cumont was entirely wrong about Iranian Mithraism being in continuity with Roman Mithraism. The Roman Mithra was best known for his act of slaying a bull; yet there is no indication that the Iranian Mithra ever had contact with a cow for any reason at all. The Roman Mithra didn't engage in contract enforcement or escorting demons into hell. And to make matters more complex, his followers in Iran, unlike the Roman Mithraists, did not worship in cave-like rooms , design levels of initiation, or pursue secrecy. There was simply no solid connection between the two faiths except for the name of the central god, some terminology, and astrological lore of the sort that was widely imported into the Roman Empire from Babylon at the time. The lack of evidence of an Iranian/Roman continuity led the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies scholars to announce that Roman Mithraism was a new creation using old Iranian names and details for an exotic coloring to give a suitably esoteric appearance to a mystery cult; -- and that Roman Mithraism was a new system that used the name of an Eastern deity to attract Romans who found anything from the east intriguing. For further study one may wish to read "Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies" Manchester U. Press, 1975, available at your local or college library. Peace, Tom  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Miskela, good post. Midnightly, YOU say gravity unlike Jesus is around us day. Sorry but Jesus is around us everyday. You just dont know HIM, therefore YOU can not feel nor see his presense. Sure there may have been other gods that claim to come from a virgin, and do all the things that Jesus has did, but where are they today? ONE never hears of them and of course I dont see any of them with a "best selling book" out like the one God the Father of JESUS has out.  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:38:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
there are many posts up with many facts not only proving that Jesus was a living historical person, but also proving names, places and events that have been written about in the Bible. Places that had NEVER up until Now been found. God foretold of the new world order, something even the presidents are talking about now. God foretold how the roman impire would have a hand in this, and I've explained this in my past two posts that all of you that say there is no God, ,there is no Jesus the Son of God, hasnt even bothered to check out. I've noticed that when there are post up such as these, no one comes by to discuss it. Such as Haddams post he put up several days ago. No when a post shows the truths of what is going on, no one wants to get involved as its easier to say, MYTH, or to each their own. So much proof of different things have been brought forth in the past two years here at usm, however no one wants to view the proof or consider it. |
Date: 11/11/2002 8:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Thank you, Tom, for stepping in with that; now I don't have to put up an "uneducated" answer to Thinker's proposition, but I will go along with what FB has alluded to: MAYBE all these other stories from various cultures were PROPHECY of Jesus' coming. God talks to ALL people, there is no limit on His potency. And, Miskela, I would personally like to put that number at 501, as I have SEEN the risen Jesus (he has some beautiful eyes). God Bless.  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 9:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Long before the Jesus character and Christianity, men had their many gods. The most prominent were the Sun gods. Among those were Osiris, Vishnu, Mithra, Apollo, Hercules, Adonis, Bacchus and Baal. The early Israelites were sun zealous sun worshipers. Charles Francois Dupuis, in his "Origin of Worship", one of the most elaborate and remarkable works on mythology ever penned, shows that nearly all religions of the world, including Christianity, were derived from solar worship. All the solar deities, he says, have a common history. "The god is born about December 25th, of a virgin, for the sun, entering the winter solstice, emerges in the sign of Virgo, the heavenly Virgin. His mother remains ever-virgin, since the rays of the sun, passing through the Zodiacal sign, leave it intact. His infancy is begirt with with dangers, because the new-born sun is feeble in the midst of the winter's fogs and mists, which threaten to devour him; his life is one of toil and peril, culminating at the spring equinox in a final struggle with the powers of darkness. At that period of day and night are equal, and both fight for the mastery. Though the night veil the urn and he seems dead; though he has descended out of sight, below the earth, yet he rises again triumphant, and he rises in the sign of the Lamb, and is thus The Lamb of God, carrying away the darkness and death of the winter months. Hence forth he triumps, growing stronger and more brilliant. He ascends into the zenith, and there he glows, on the right hand of God, himself God, the very substance of the Father, the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, upholding all things by his lifegiving power. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 9:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
AMEN deb, but ya know your going to be told what drugs ya taking, or you ONLY seen what you want to see as the mind can do strange things. Any of those statements I'm sure you will get. Many people have seen him today, but they are labeled as crazy. I believe ya, as I too have been in HIS presense. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 9:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
But thinker the Lord wasn't born dec 25. That is just a day that some have given to honor him. You say he carries away darkness and death of the winter months. The lord Jesus carries away darkness and death of the spiriutal eternity. Now before this god you mentioned was to come to pass, Jesus was there before, in the beginning with God to form the earth, he may not have come physically until much later, but He was there from the beginning. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 9:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Strange as it may seem while Mithras and Osiris, Monysos and Bacchus, Apollo and Serapis, with many others, all masculine sun gods, and all interblended, a knowledge of one is generally a knowledge of the whole, whereever located or worshipped. If Christ was not originally a solar god he wears the livery of one. His mother, the Virgin, was the mother of the solar gods, his birthday, Christmas, is the birthday of all the gods of the sun; his twelve apostles correspond with the twelve signs of the Zodiac; according to the gospels, at his crucifixion the sun was eclipsed, he expired toward sunset, and rose again with the sun, the day appointed for his worship, the Lord's day, is the dies solis, Sunday, of sun worshipers; while the principle feasts observed in memory of him were once observed in honor of their goals. "Every detail of the Sun myth is worked into the record of the Galilean teacher"=noted astronomer, Richard A. Proctor. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 9:47:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 61913
This post was meant to spur discussion and it has. I know the futility of trying to PROVE to a non-believer the existence of a saviour they are unready or unwilling to see. Jesus knew it, too. This debate is another example of how the blind will not see, no matter how much "proof" you give them. They will spend hours researching why it cannot be so, yet not spend one moment honestly considering that it can. I wonder why people so forcefully reject of a gift of eternal life and a purpose on earth. Yet they do. Jesus knew it would be this way. He knew it 2,000 years ago and he knows -- not knew -- KNOWS it now. People have claimed to be the son of God, "fulfilling" pieces of prophecy -- the Devil isn't stupid after all -- but there is only one man who in his life fulfilled over 100 prophecies. Prophecies that you can't "manipulate" like where you are born or your lineage. The only thing a person TRULY needs to do to find out the truth is *honestly* open their heart to Jesus and accept him in. After that, their lives are changed forever and they wonder, "I can't fathom there a time I did not see the Truth." Each one of us has the right to choose - that was God's plan. Unfortunately, some of you will stay in the darkness (ignorance, sin, your own devices) until you die (and God knows you will) and your fate will be sealed. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 9:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
The cross, and especailly the crucifix, was an emblem of solar worship. It was caned or painted on, or within, a circle representing the horizon, the head and feet and the outstretched arms of the sacrificial offering or crucified Redeemer pointing toward the four quarters of the horizon. The Lord's supper, observed in memory of Christ, was observed in memory of Mithra, Bacchus, and other solar gods. The nimbus, or aureola, surrounding the head of Jesus in his portraits represents the rays of the sun. It was thus that the ancient adorers of the sun adorned effigies of their gods. There still exists a pillar erected by the sun worshippers of Carthage. On this pillar is caned the sun god, Baal, with the nimbus encircling his head. |
Date: 11/11/2002 9:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Please! Please spare me the old "You're blind and refuse to see/consider" mumbo jumbo, for that is all I heard (and spouted out myself!) for over 40 years! It is precisely BECAUSE I OPENED MY EYES AND MY MIND AND STARTED ON A SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH, THAT HAS LED ME TO WHERE I AM NOW. And, oh my goodness, yes, I do wonder, yes indeedy, "I CANNOT FATHOM A TIME WHEN I DID NOT SEE THE TRUTH"! I agree on that!  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 10:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
hehehe...I could go on forever. Anyway...the Christian doctrine of the resurrection had its origin in the sun worship. As the sun, the Father, rose from the dead, so it was believed that his earthly children would also rise from the dead. "The daily disappearance and the subsequent rise of the sun appeared to many ancients as a true resurrection; thus while east came to be regarded as the source of light and warmth, happiness and glory, the west was associated with darkness and chill, decay and death. This led to the custom of burying the dead so as to face the east when they rose again, and building temples and shrines with an opening toward the east. To effect this, Vitruvius, thousands of years ago, gave precise rules, which are still followed by Christian architects."=Newton |
| Date: 11/11/2002 10:23:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 OR...crucifixion is just plain how they killed people back then. Like stoning. Regarding your discussion on stars and such, consider who MADE the stars. And the planets. And the earth. And then consider who He put on earth to save it. |
Date: 11/11/2002 10:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 20104
I believe Jesus was a real man. However he was not resurected and was not the son of God. It is a nice story, but it is FAKE!!!! You are entitled to your own opinion. Believe what ever you want. I will never believe something just because someone like you told me it is what I should think.  |
Date: 11/11/2002 10:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 20497
How wonderful this is...... people do have hard hearts........they just don't see it.  |
| Date: 11/11/2002 10:47:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 Why do you believe Jesus was a real man? |
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Date: 11/11/2002 10:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 20104
Because there is proof that he exsisted. Why would you ask something like that? |
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Date: 11/11/2002 11:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Aw, come on now, Bwearsie, just because I don't and cannot believe such a preposterous story and mythical tall tale...THAT means I have a "hard heart"? You can walk right over to the RIDICULOUS ASSUMPTIONS file, and file that right alongside the others, such as: "Non believers are satan worshipers"; "Non-believers are miserable, lonely and lost"; nonbelievers are blind and deceived by satan", and many other cliches taught by the deceptive clergy and church since it all started. Hey, even our Prez BUSH proclaimed "I don't consider Atheists to be citizens". Please, get to know ME, as a human being, one who has nothing but love and concern for people/humanity and one who has the highest of morals and ideals; one who has some very wonderful Christian friends, and one who does NOT have a hardened heart. Send a message to Linda, Shadowghost, Thunderhead, Jungebel, Ginger, Azairyia and ask THEM: "Does Thinker have a hardened heart?" |
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Date: 11/11/2002 11:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Miskela, here you go, go read up on all this stuff, in there is a complete explanation for all the crucifixions and why it was such a befitting way to die for all the gods. www.askwhy.co.uk/awmob/awpagan/pag240RELOtherSaviours.html |
| Date: 11/11/2002 11:23:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 You do believe in tales, just not the truth. It's not about how nice a guy you are or how many "morals" or "ideals" you have. We all, by willful choice since Adam and Eve, sinned against God one way or another. Jesus was our "get out of jail free card" -- we didn't do anything to deserve it. "Well, I only broke commandment 1, not commandment 7" doesn't cut it with God. Until you make yourself right with Him, and He gave you the tools to do so, being the nicest guy in the world isn't going to help you. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 11:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Again, Miskela, That "Adam and Eve" story was taken from the many ancient mythical tales; one in particular comes to mind: I'd have to go back and research as to whether it was Persia or India, but the one story was so similar to the Adam and Eve of the Bible. Adam was called "Adama" and Eve was called "Eva" in the story and it had a little bit of a different ending to it. These tales were long before the time of Christianity and were passed along by travelers and merchants who visited these countries. That whole "Sins of Adam" thing, and the guilt trips laid on people, and claims of "free will" is so absurd. Think about it: "Believe or burn!". You got two choices: Either believe (faith) or burn for eternity....yeah, right. Some "Free" "Choice" there! And you ask me to consider; you ask me to believe that a person who lived a life of crimes, and was a rapist and child molestor or murderer....all he has to do is say "I'm sorry, I believe" and voila! right up to heaven he goes, while someone who has lived a good, decent and moral life, who has only done and contributed much to this earth and fellow man, and simply because he cannot in all honesty and all that is SANE, if he doesn't believe, then HE will burn in this "hell" for eternity??? Sure. Shuuuuuure. |
| Date: 11/11/2002 12:22:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 It doesn't matter where your "tale" comes from - India or Persia or The Bronx Zoo, it's perfectly fine if these tales of yours existed before Christianity. Christianity refers to Christ. Christ wasn't Christian. He was a Jew. Followers of Christ have existed for 2,000 years. Countless other religions have existed long before Christ ever came, but they are simply religions. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. As for the criminal, yes, if he truly, honestly, and humbly confesses his sin and accepts the gift of salvation - yes, he goes to heaven. God's judgment is not society's judgment. It's called mercy - and He grants it despite the fact that we don't deserve it. And yes, your good and decent man who was "such a swell guy", but deliberately did not acknowledge Jesus as his saviour? Yes, he spends an eternity apart from God. If he denounces God's way of salvation, and the Son of God, then he is turning away from God. That's fine. He can do that. But as he has rejected God and God's plan, on the day of judgment, so God will reject him. You can't show up on Heaven's front door and say, "Ohhhh...oops. I was wrong. You told me and I didn't believe you. Hehe. Well, it looks pretty hot down there and eh...you did tell me and I told you to stuff it, but ah...I believe you now. Can I come in?" There's only one life to get it right - contrary to what many may think. |
| Date: 11/11/2002 12:26:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 JamieJ, you acknowledge that Jesus Christ existed. Have you ever about Him in the bible? Or are you relying on what friends have told you or what you've heard in the media or at church? If you have ever read the words of Jesus, calling him simply a "man" or a "really good teacher" isn't enough. You're halfway there. But there's still so much you don't know. Read John. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 12:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
JamieJ; what you say is true, ,HOWEVER to bury ones head in the sand and NOT seek out the information that IS proven, is as BAD as taking someones word for it just because they say its so. Kind of a cuts off ones nose, to spite its face. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 12:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Author< your new here, You will find that people here would rather believe in ANY other tale, except for Christ and HIM risen. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 12:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Preach on, Miskela; preach on. People wonder why so much of the old mythology, the daily talk, was solar and what else could it have been? The names of the sun are endless and so are the stories; but who he was, whence he came and whither he went, remained a mystery from beginning to end.......Man looked up to the sun, yearning for the response of a soul and though that response never came, though his senses recoiled, dazzled and blinded by a beaming brightness which he could not support, yet he never doubted that the invisible was there, and that, where his senses failed him, where he could not neither grasp nor comprehend, he might just still shut his eyes and trust...have faith, and fall down and worship. This worship of old survives in the worship today. A knowledge of the location, the limits and the nature of the sun has gradually convinced the world that this is not God's dwelling place; but somewhere out there in the wide expanse of the wild blue yonder somewhere that he has his throne. To this imaginary being is rendered the same adoration that was rendered to him byprimitive man---the adoration of childish ignorance. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 1:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Ignorance can also be relative. It could just as easily be said that those who believe differently than those who are not believers in either Christianity or the Bible are also choosing to remain in ignorance. Belief systems are just that..."belief" systems. To point the finger at another who does not "believe" as you and call them blind or ignorant is merely name calling and opinion. I believe that the more important point regarding all of us would be that we all are of differing beliefs and that because they are beliefs we should respect that each person will follow their heart as to what they believe. Name calling is pointless. |
| Date: 11/11/2002 1:16:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 Actually, it was Jesus who commented on people who do not see the truth as being blind. It's not name-calling, it's a state of being. And yes, people DO choose to remain in ignorance. Their reasons are their own. (That's a whole other debate, though I may post about it) (Miskela) |
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Date: 11/11/2002 1:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
LadyNxy, I agree, calling someone Ignornant because they cant see apparently what the other one, is pointless. I do see what the author is saying, as yes it was Jesus that said, " Let those that are ignorant be ignorant still." But she should have put that in quotes so that it didnt look like a personal attack. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 1:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
True, FB. But one must also take into consideration that those who say they believe in Jesus may have beliefs that are not even consistent with the facts....especially since there is little to no real proof of what occured. So who is to say who is ignorant, when one cannot define factually what it is they are ignorant to? Some may be ignorant by following false teachings...others may be ignorant by not following true teachings...either way it is based on a person's own personal beliefs. And of course we add to the mixture the organization of "Christianity" by political and religious leaders seeking power....when even before the organization...and closer to the time when Christ actually lived there were many different factions and beliefs regarding Christ. Not until Constantine initiated organizing the belief into one mainstream belief were there only allowed specific ideas in regards to what truly was said and done and occured. |
| Date: 11/11/2002 1:58:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 Actually, I never called anyone ignorant. That discussion started with Thinker's post and followed up with LadyNyx's (although I did re-comment on it after she did). I commented about blindness, but prefaced it in my original post as "Jesus himself said..." and later referred to it two times in the course of re-iterating the first point. Ignorant means "unaware" or "lacking knowlege". (I'm guessing that's the definition you were referring to, LadyNyx, unless you had another more unpleasant definition) Blind has many definitions and the one I am using is "unable or unwilling to perceive or understand" with respect to the truth about Jesus Christ. Are we done with semantics now? (Miskela) |
| Date: 11/11/2002 2:10:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 All the evidence in the world will not sway a person determined to reject it. There is a simple way to discover the truth about Jesus Christ. In five minutes, with an open heart and some true honesty, anyone walking this earth can know Jesus Christ. After that, there is no question. But only an honest seeker will receive the Truth. God is not fooled by our fleeting intellectual curiosities. (Miskela) |
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Date: 11/11/2002 2:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Do I hear a BIG AMEN here???!!!! Welcome to the Amen sisterhood (and brotherhood) of USM, Miskela. God Bless. |
Date: 11/11/2002 3:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 47166
Well, here's my two bits on the subject. I don't believe Christ was the savior, because I don't have any proof to that end. Likewise I have no proof that he wasn't, so I don't believe that Christ wasn't the savior. You say in your post: "What if you're wrong." Well, that's precisely the way I look at it: There are far too many "What if"'s. Look at it this way- almost every religion says that if you don't believe in a certain way, then you're doomed to some form of a 'Hell.' This being the case, I must objectively ask you- What if you're wrong? What if it's secular? What if Heaven is only open to Mormons or Jehova's Witnesses? Now, I don't mean to put down you or your beliefs in any way shape or form; in fact, I thouroughly enjoyed your post. All I mean to say is that it is useless to try and impose certain ideas on certain people. I am fully aware that the Bible says to spread the word of God, which you are doing, but I don't think that you are meant to push it to the point that it becomes moot. Some people simply will not listen to an idea and you should accept that. As to the people who will either attack or belittle your religion- you just need to rebut their statements in a calm and orderly fashion, and if they don't listen, then at least you tried, you fulfilled your end of the bargain. But, near the end of your replies, you started to get a little angry, and were trying only to belittle people's lack of faith, and this saddened me, to see an intelligent poster begin to lessen their message with anger. You must learn to overcome your anger, and only argue using facts. Wow, I really got off-topic, eh?  |
Date: 11/11/2002 4:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
are you willing to bet eternity your right? i believe he existed but i dont believe hes the son of god and also people see ghosts everyday  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 4:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
how is this a debate anyway? also 1 more thing the bible has been translated many times oh i lied 1 more tinsy winsy thing the worshipping of false idols is a sin but yet you pay worship to a cross which in all actuality the romans didnt put jesus on the cross of today it was in a T shape as in a capital T meaning you worship a false idol |
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Date: 11/11/2002 4:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
oh dip 1 more thing again it takes a long time to die from getting stuck to a cross so it couldnt have happened in 6 hours and usually people we left to rot on the crosses |
| Date: 11/11/2002 4:22:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 clukinvar, you don't see anger. I'm not at all anger. Weary perhaps, that discussion gets sidetracked by inconsequentials, but definitely not angry. I'm not trying to impose my beliefs, I'm initiating discussion and presenting my side. Others disagree with me and tell me their side, if that's not a debate, I'm not sure what one is. I don't expect to have every person -- at the end of this discussion -- come to Christ. However, my hope is that people are thinking about Jesus. Examine. Argue. Consider. Theorize. But at least we're all putting our thoughts into him, even if we don't agree. Maybe this post will be forgotten as soon as you go to dinner. Maybe a week will go by and not a thought about him. But...maybe someone will investigate what I've said, what the Bible says, and well...that would be something wouldn't it? |
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Date: 11/11/2002 4:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Lady Nyx, If someone perceives the use of the word: Ignorance, to be "name calling", then I will take my stand right along with the likes of Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, and many of the founding fathers, who used that word many times in their writings when referring to the beliefs and practices, superstitions and bigotry of revealed religions. Miskela says one who is ignorant is "unable or unwilling to perceive or understand". Now, if she were speaking only to someone who never heard of the Bible; never heard the "you must accept Jesus as your saviour or burn in hell" sermon; and or had very little knowledge of Christianity, then I can go with her "unaware or lacking knowledge" or someone being "unwilling or unable" preachings. I have said many times on this forum: I SPENT MANY YEARS WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN faith; many years I studied the Bible, I WAS a believer; I WAS very dedicated; and I DID preach, think, and said the same things. I THOUGHT "they" (non-christians) were the blind, ignorant and lost, and loudly proclaimed that. I BOUGHT it all; I trusted; and I ACCEPTED everything as "truth". I know NOW just how IGNORANT I was. (underline the *I*!). It wasn't by being blind and ignorant or "unwilling" that led me to MY position, MY belief, as it is now. And it most certainly was NOT a "fleeting intellectual curiosity" either! Nothing "fleeting" about MY search, and MY quest for truth; and it will continue until I cease to breath. Now, when anyone starts telling me that I better accept such an extraordinary story or burn in hell....I'm sorry, but there is no other way around it; to me: THAT is ignorance. When someone ASSUMES and loudly proclaims that I have a "hardened heart"; that I must be "evil" and or "worship the devil" and any and all such statements (because I don't believe in Jesus); then there is no other way around it: THAT is ignorance. Miskela, you need to think about turning your statement around to read: "All the evidence in the world will not sway a person determined to BELIEVE it". Think about that for yourself and or other believers, because THAT has been MY perception of the entire matter. And, like I said before, I have many years of experience with this. I consider myself one of the most fortunate, one of the luckiest people on the planet, for having discovered the truth. And, one simply cannot go BACKWARDS ....from knowledge....from the FACTS; from enlightenment. For my beloved friends who are Christians, I ACCEPT THEM. I do not fault them, or judge them for what they truly believe, and I would never get in a debate with them. They love me and accept me, and do not preach to me or try to "save my soul". Religious belief is just something we do not share. We have all sorts of wonderful things to share, and there are many great things that do not have religion or God attached to it. Since this topic was placed in DEBATE, that is why I give my thoughts and opinions; otherwise, and until someone comes up to be and assaults me with the "fire and brimstone" preaching or pressures, then you won't hear a peep out of me. Miskela, can we just agree to disagree? |
Date: 11/11/2002 4:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
Y'know...if Jesus was an alien, i'm pretty sure he could've faked the whole thing. And don't tell me that's a crazier idea then a person actually being the creator of the universe.  |
| Date: 11/11/2002 6:01:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 Thinker, feel free to disagree with me. I welcome it. I'll not speculate on why you've turned from Jesus and although it'll mean little to you, I'm sorry that it's happened. I've prayed for you anyway. And if you ever want to talk about the events that lead you away from Him, feel free to message me privately and we can go from there. (Miskela) |
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Date: 11/11/2002 6:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
miskela your new so im not gonna jump down your throat but down ignorant,arrogant and small minded post like this you wont get respect around here doing it |
Date: 11/11/2002 6:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
Bravo PapaBryant.....I see there are still people here who instead of letting people believe as they will, still feel it ok to try and demorilize the Xtian viewpoint. I do care about people and love all but they can believe how they wish. Yet when someone completly brushes off someones faith it is a sign of ignorance and hate, and I see it is still allowed here....sad  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 6:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Miskela, I thank you for your sincere concern and offer to discuss why I "turned away from Jesus", but if you will go back up there to my FIRST reply , wherein I said "studying all the ancient myths is the most compelling evidence for me that..."; you will see that that is the biggest reason I don't believe. Contrary to what MOST believers think or WANT to believe, I did not turn away because of some kind of bad experience. There wasn't anything bad that happened that made me "hate God" (that's a comment I get a lot); there wasn't anything at all to that effect; just simply finding out that for all my life I had not been exposed to the FACTS er, HISTORY of all the different religions and how they got started, and the reasons WHY we had such things as the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the witchhunts; and I studied Goverments and world leaders, and their beliefs, and even more important is that I discovered Thomas Paine and his "Age of Reason"; and the very prolific writings of several of the founding fathers of the United States. You see, none of this was available or was ever taught to me as a child. I was so ignorant, and didn't even know it. I've often exclaimed "I wish all those great men and their writings could be taught and discussed in schools today, rather than quibbling about The Pledge of Allegience. Well, if there were the teachings of those great men, there would be NO quibbling and the words in the Pledge would never have been changed in the first place. Oh, well, I am getting off there, but I just wanted to say thank you for your concern and your offer, but I am extremely happy where I am and look forward to each and every day in my new found (about 5 years now) freedom; I have no need to go backwards. Thank you for your prayers, but since I don't believe in prayer, I can't see as how it really matters. If you gives YOU comfort though, please know that I'll accept them. If one is happy and at peace with what they believe , then that is good; that is what is best. All I ask is that everyone who doesn't share your belief be accepted and let's all SHARE the things we CAN, if not religion, for there is so much much more to life than that. PEACE and good wishes for all, Catherine |
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Date: 11/11/2002 6:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 61763
thats right Miskela if you can't explain it or it conflicts with you briefs just take the easy way out and blame the devil. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 6:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 61763
Its so sad how people think their religion is the only truth. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 6:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
Thinker do you concider yourself as being a woman who is very familiar with an Automobile? I assume you drive don't you? If so, you are very aware and familiar with what the key is suppose to do, What the Brake is suppose to do, how to drive it, among many other things etc.etc. But do you know about everything that works and funtions "WITHIN" the Automobile? The Power train, the Engine, the Transmission, The combustion, the spark, the Fire, Everything that gives the Automobile its "POWER"? Yes you are very familiar with an Automobile. However you are still Ignorant about many things concerning the Parts that gives it the Power to get you where you need to go. The same is with the Power System of Jesus Christ to the Born Again Believer. That Power system is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. Like the Automobile, you may know much about general Christianity. However, you could not know anything about the Holy Spirit Power of Jesus Christ, because if you in fact, did know as much about the Power System as you "THINK" you know, you would not be saying that Jesus is not God, or that Jesus is not the Son of God. You do not go around saying the Automobile is not a Machine, just because you may be Ignorant of how the Power System functions do you? Thinker as kind as I can say it. This is what you must know. You may think you know all there is to know about the Truth of Jesus Christ, but you "DON"T". You can't! You obviously can't, because with Christ you Must know about the Power in His Name, or else you one who is concidered Ignorant by those who really do. And you are only deceiving Yourself. Because others who too, are Ignorant of the Power of the Holy Spirit was decieved already, before you ever contributed your knowledge to what is, and is not the truth Concerning Jesus Christ and the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT. Would you be one who is willing to admit, that you know not Everything there is to know about an Automobile, and that there is some things concerning it, you are still Ignorant of? If so, then would you owe the Creator any less? If you say you owe him Nothing, then WE, who know already about the His Power System (Holy Spirit) Know that you do not know what you claim you know and are appearing as one who does not believe which is interpreted as one who is being Foolish. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
The Holy Spirit Power Goes far and Beyond any kind of History man can fumble with, as he reports it. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
Thinker I too would like to draw everyones attention to Jesters comments. Has the Author of this post anywhere within this post used the words to belittle someone as the boy called Jestr is trying to do? Again, Where does it always seem to start first, and from which kind of a believer? |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
I suppose it is really Hip, to refer to others as Dip, while implying the Post itself is small minded, undeserving of any Respect. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Actually the use of the word ignorant that I was referring to was taken from a quote from the author... "some of you will stay in the darkness (ignorance, sin, your own devices) until you die (and God knows you will) and your fate will be sealed." In this context the term is used to infer that because one does not follow the beliefs (without proof) of another then they are uneducated...on top of being labeled a sinner...and on top of infering that a person is incuring upon themselve a negative fate. What I am pointing out here is that ignorant can be used to label anyone of any belief (or no belief) simply because they do not agree with another....which is not a true definition of the word...but rather a passive aggressive attempt at infering that the person is simply uneducated because they do not agree. I would be more inclined to accept the word "ignorant" or "uneducated" if a person was of a certain belief system simply because they were sheepishly following a dogma or popular opinion without even knowing why they believed as they did or without studying or opening their mind to other possible facts. Which is not what I see most nonbelievers doing here. Most nonbelievers that I see have usually done quite a bit of study and contemplation before coming to their own conclusions as to what they believe or do not believe. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
LadyNYX, Would you try to tell a Certified Automobile Mechanic, that he is Ignorant of what He personaly knows, just because you have studied some mechanics? Who would be the one who was Ignorant? |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Huh? Are you saying Jesus was a certified automechanic? |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Seriously though...no I would ask the auto mechanic and, if he was an honest one...because we all know there are dishonest ones...then I would take his word. The same could be said for Jesus....unfortunately we can't just walk up to him and ask him what the truth really was. We have to rely on the word of political and religious leaders who have organized a religion based upon his name....and just as there are dishonest auto mechanics...so is it true that there are dishonest politicians and religious leaders. So...one cannot KNOW that what one reads second, third, and fourth hand from others is what Jesus really would have said. Trusting that men have passed on the truth properly is a matter of "belief"....not knowledge. Therefore one would not be uneducated nor ignorant for not accepting another's beliefs....they simply would be disagreeing. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
Something like that! NO, but the Holy Spirit is the Certification of the Power of Jesus! And if your not Certified, dont say the Mechanic is Ignorant.LOL |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
WEll, we, (you and I) have no problem as to the fact that Like the Mechanics, are crooked, so is Some Religious Teachers! But Lady it is all in the CERTIFICATION! And the certification is only Reconized in these times, by Jesus and the INDIVIDUAL that received the Certification. If you or anyone else wishes to know the TRUTH about Jesus, then you must become CERTIFIED yourself. To do so, all one needs is a heart of Faith, that simply will ask Him for the Certification. No college funding needed! Taint that cool! LOL. I shore thank so. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 7:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 40089
Yes Jesus was real and still is today an , be careful of this that spew their Igorance as studying the Greek for years tells me an others they are so wrong , but dont blame for they dont know better , just be patient and their fruit will bare and you will see the truth . God Bless  |
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Date: 11/11/2002 8:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Haadam, I don't really care about knowing everything about HOW an automobile works or the "power"; but IF I DID, and I wanted to spend the time and money, I would go to Technical school and could do just that. I mean...it IS available; al there for the taking, should anyone or myself wish to know. On the other hand, as with this christianity, I DID want to know; I DID want to learn, and I sat out on a quest, and have found out an awwwwwful lot, and I intend to keep right on finding out more. As for the "holy spirit" and the "power of the holy spirit"....well, hey, buddy, I'm only concerned about LIFE HERE ON THIS PLANET, and don't care one tiny bit about "spirits" and "demons" and "ghosts" and things that go bump in the night. Hey, I got an OPEN MIND though, that is, IF you have anything you could enlighten me with or share with me.....anything that makes SENSE with regards to these "spirits". Please, please try to understand where I am coming from, Haadam. You see; all my life I had sooooooooooo many people CLAIMING to have the "holy spirit" and claiming all sorts of things were being done by this holy spirit....yeah, well, I quickly could see that it was all for show; that there was no "miracles", there THEIR lives was as bad as it ever was. See, I PAID ATTENTION TO THEIR ACTIONS; THEIR LIVES and in all areas; not just what they "testified" too in church and or the words coming out of their mouths. Understand whatta mean? Now, also, I'd like to say that with a MACHINE, any machine ,bicycle, car, washing machine, or a wristwatch, etc; I can find out WHO the manufacturer is; I can even go to the manufacturer is and find out WHO designed the machine. With this God claim, I cannot find out if there was a creator, and I sure as heck am not about to just slap a "god did it" label on it and call it a day. I mean to go right on looking, probing, questioning, and critiquing, and never will I ever have the arrogance and stupidity to THINK that I have all the answers......to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. Never; for that is growth death to me. And if there is growth death, life wouldn't be meaningful to me. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 8:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Hmmmm...well, I don't know about you, Haadam, but I haven't seen Jesus come down and certify anybody in any particular organized religion yet. |
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Date: 11/11/2002 8:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
And a AMEN, Haadaam! My definition of ignorance has always been "the state of ignoring", which I suppose each "side" does. God Bless. |
Date: 11/11/2002 9:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 15319
I'm not even getting into this. Let this guy ramble on until his tongue falls out for all I care.  |
| Date: 11/11/2002 9:59:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 Wow, you leave for a few hours, come back, and a bunch of new commentary to read. As for Jestr, I will not even attempt to defend or rebutte anything that has been posted since it seems to me Jestr seems more intent on disruption rather than honest debate. Some really interesting posts there, Hadaam. I enjoyed them quite a bit. Thinker, you say you have had no "bad experiences" to sway you but from the tone of your last message, I'm inclined to think otherwise. (Offer stands unlimited if you change your mind) I read a quote about gnostics (not to be confused with AGnostics) which said, "The great thing about being gnostic (seeker of truth) is you don't have to believe in anything." I used to be someone who spent more time looking for the defining piece of evidence with which to place my faith (and Christianity buh-LIEVE me wasn't my first choice -- see my "Thoughts on Christianity" post. Only through an ACT of FAITH can Jesus's work and wonder come alive in us. (Miskela) |
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Date: 11/11/2002 10:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Miskela, PLEASE! this gets me so angry, when you people INSIST that YOU really know MY reasons for rejecting the whole of Christianity. I TOLD you why; TOLD you; and you won't accept it. Fine. Think whatever you wish (you will anyway!). Please go back and READ my first reply to this post! the part about certain individuals and their putting on a show, well, that is only a part of the WHOLE sordid view I got of religion. You need to go back and read the: "PART OF" portion of my statement? PART OF.....PART OF.....get it? I won't even get into your statement about "good part is you don't have to believe anything'. Those kind of statements are ignorant schlock that comes right from the pulpit, and haven't diddly squat to do with ANY truth whatsoever. |
| Date: 11/11/2002 10:30:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61913 Thinker, calm down. Sheesh. Actually the gnostic quote came from, of all things, a gnostic website. How's that for irony? (Miskela) |
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Date: 11/11/2002 10:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Oh for petes sake! That isn't what upset me. It was your "inclined to think otherwise" crap! Hey, dearie, when you make statements like that: the gloves are off. I cannot stand it when I tell someone something; reply to their questions; with truth and sincerety, only to have that person turn around and say in other words that that is not really the truth and that THEY know the truth about MY feelings, My reasons. Arrogance! |
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Date: 11/12/2002 12:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 23610
Ahem....to get back on track with the debate (this is a debate, isn't it?). Miskela, you stated above, "I know the futility of trying to PROVE to a non-believer the existence of a saviour they are unready or unwilling to see. Jesus knew it, too. This debate is another example of how the blind will not see, no matter how much "proof" you give them." Fair enough....but what is the "proof" you are offering that should stand out as unrefutable truth? |
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Date: 11/12/2002 12:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 53052
there is no simple task everyone can do to see that Jesus is around us.. unlike gravity... you let go of a ball.. it falls to the ground.. something is pulling it to the ground.. that would be gravity... you can't do something like that to prove jesus is there... is there? if there is let me know!! i'll give it a try.. but until then... |
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Date: 11/12/2002 12:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 23610
Also...as to your question of why was the calendar changed...the Julian and the Gregorian calendars were Roman concepts and where did organized Christianity begin but in Rome....so of course it would reflect their particular religious beliefs but that does not mean that the whole world follows that calendar (in fact there are other calendars used)...nor does it mean that because the Julian calendar (under the Emperor Julius Cesar) or the Gregorian calendar (under Pope Gregory) is used by people because they believe in Jesus Christ (and it certainly does not imply that a person has to believe any specific teachings regarding the life of Jesus). It was another religiously mandated conception. But does nothing to prove anything about Jesus Christ other than that it was the ruling religion of that time and place. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 5:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 10146
Well you see thinker! You answered yourself, and revilled to your own self, the Reason you did not become certified with the Holy Spirit when you set out on your QUEST! You went seeking for the Christianity thing! You put your eyes and ears on all men/man who claimed to be a christian. You found "THEY" with grave errors, many of which "IS" and "ARE" PHONIES. But as you said, concerning the Holy Spirit, or the POWER behind it, and Ghost (whether they be Holy or not) you had no interist! You were only concerned about Life here on this Planet called "EARTH". Thats it!! This is the reason your quest of what some of us know as "TRUTH" was not discovered by you. You see, Jesus is not of this world, and is no longer here on it in Flesh Form. He is gone Out of this world preparing a place for us who become certified by Him the MASTER! To find him you must be willing to leave this Planet called Earth Behind, and seek after "HIM" and his spirit Presence. Forget my kind,(the certified) Forget the Phonies who play like their certified. Go directly out of this world with open heart, seeking only JESUS in the Kingdom that is not of this world, but yet in part, is still of this world, only because some of us, that have become Certified, still must live in this world because our flesh is still part of this world. But in order to Leave this world (Where all your answers are) you must seek him, and only Him "FIRST", so that he too can Certify "YOU" so that you can leave this world in Spirit, and visit things in Heaven, as the Holy Ghost (which you claim you do not want) shows them to you. Then you will know all about the "POWER" of Jesus, of God, of the Creator, because these Three "ALONE" have certified you, HIMSELF! Until you seek for him rather than the Faults of Mortal flesh, you will never find your PROOF, of what many "KNOW" as Truth, and are no longer Ignorant of. Peace,to you, and may you find it. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 5:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 10146
Thinker, Please try and remember this one thing. If you wish to "SEE" the Person you want to talk to, it cannot be done if Someone is Standing between you and that Person. If you and ladyNyx was standing 6 feet across from each other in this room looking at each other, and I (who am very wide to say the least) stands up, and in front of you, You would not be able to SEE the person you are wanting to see. In this example LadyNyx. The same is true for searching for Truth of whether Jesus is the Creator God. Do not try to see him, by looking through others flesh! You can see him by yourself if you only have Faith first, that he is Real, Alive, and There in Spirit. This I tell you is truth. It is only this truth that I speak, that is enough to let you know, it is your "FAITH" that is what is going to let you become CERTIFIED. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 7:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 61763
I thought this was about proving Jesus was the son of God not someone ramming their opinion down others throats. |
Date: 11/12/2002 7:38:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
If I may take my own bait here and explain the ignoring going on: I am going to use a few of us USMR's as examples, please don't anyone take this offensively because I am trying to bring an understanding to this, not get anybody all riled up. The way to understanding the whole "Jesus" concept is threefold: it can be accomplished when any two of these components hold true for you. First of all we are, as The MAN puts it, a flesh body so we have a physical sense. Second, we are all intelligent, and use our minds (spirits) for reasoning. Third, we all have feelings which resonate our particular brand of morality, which comes from the heart (soul). Now, I am someone who has expereinced Jesus in the physical sense (see my first comment on this post) and in my heart. I do not feel that I have satisfied my intellectual understanding of him, though, but the other two components can trump my spirit and I can believe. Tom is a person who I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong), who has not expereinced a physical sensation of Jesus, but who can believe due to his soul and his intellect being satisfied by his learnings. Haadaam (who, I think even he would admit can be a bit cryptic in his writing is someone who I feel has experienced all three: a physical knowledge of Jesus, a spiritual (his mind has been given the understanding) and a heartfelt (soulful) one. There you have three of us who are believers with all of us having at least two of these three components satisfied. Then we come to Thinker who I feel has a heartfelt morality that is of God, but as she has mentioned previously, she cannot bring her mind (spirit) into believeing in Jesus without some physical proof of him. NO AMOUNT of tugging at her heart, or intellectualization is going to make that leap of faith for her. She needs physical proof which NOT ONE OF US can provide. Now there may be people out there who have the spiritual ability to believe in Jesus but not have a physical experience to back that up, AND in their heart "it" just hasn't happened for them. There may be people out there that have had a physical experience that can be attributed to Jesus, but their minds and hearts don't want to acknowledge that. And then there may be people out there without any of the three components satisfied. These last three categories of people, I feel, have the cards stacked against them so to speak, as THEIR SOULS just can't fathom how to understand. I would say to all of us trying to spread the Good News of Christ that I can appreciate you trying to reach these categories of people but the harsh fact is that this has been the direct progression of their souls that have gotten them into that hardened heart. Just as our bodies are made up of the DNA that makes us uniquely "us", our minds and our hearts have the qualities of that which we came from. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone, but it gives me a grasp on why people believe the way they do. And we can't IGNORE that each one of us have different life experiences which will determine our ability to understand. God Bless. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 8:27:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 61913
To the author who said I'm taking the "easy way out", I beg to differ. And if you think that Satan is not real, maybe you should look around you sometime. He's very real and very busy. As Christians try to claim souls for Heaven, Satan tries to claim them for himself (sour grapes and all that). Thinker, if Earth is all you're interested in - the here and now - then you know (or should know) that this is "the devil's playground". Once you become a Christian, you no longer belong to this world and it's pretty plain to see why. True, we live here a while longer, try to bring the Good News to others (because it IS good news -- salvation and fullness of life on earth AND in heaven is awesome news!), and live for God's will and not our own. (Many people find THAT a bitter pill to swallow, but consider something: God is omniscient, don't you think he knows what's best for you?) Granted, we're human and we make mistakes. Reading these comments, I can honestly say that before I became a Christian, I have felt each one of them -- denial, indignation, wariness, frustration. The thought that any of this Jesus stuff was real or the Bible or whatever...my logic couldn't swallow it. My pride refused to. My fear got the better of me. Did you know that "Do not be afraid" is mentioned 365 times in the bible? How handy. Once for every day of the year. Author61763, debate is ALL about opinion and so far I haven't seen anyone "ramming" anything. Thinker is as passionate about her view as Haadam is about his. Without a trace of emotion or sincerity, this would be a pretty boring debate. (Miskela) [I wish you could put spaces in comments and replies] |
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Date: 11/12/2002 9:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Miskela, All I see from you is more PREACHING. And just like nearly every single religious fanatic I TRY to reason with; they IGNORE , avoid and evade that which they have no answer for or don't wish to address. You didn't reply at all to MY being upset with your assumption and statement: "I'm inclined to think otherwise". It is this preachy, exclusivistic "I'm better than you are, and *I* am the one who REALLY knows.." kind of attitude that further cements my beliefs. This world may be the "devils playground" for you; and you might choose to dwell only on the things of another world and a mythical entity, but I choose REALITY; I choose to make a difference is THIS life, THIS world, for myself and others. If one only is to be concerned about the afterlife, another world, then why bother with anything in THIS world? Why not just go into a monastery, cloister, or become a religious monk, and bury my head in the bible, recite scriptures, pray, and "give no thought to the things of this world"?? NO THANKS. When there is a problem, when there is a NEED: someone needs a sack of groceries, someone needs help in paying a freaking heating bill, someone needs help right here and NOW, in THIS world, I will not just throw a "Just pray about it" cliche answer at the person or problem! I will not tell a friend in dire need: "Just open the bible and ask God"! I am going to roll up my sleeves and GET THE JOB DONE, and not rely on some sugar-daddy-in-the-sky to give me a "sign"! Never, never again, will I chuck my brain or my capabilities at the door, and enter into the realm of superstition and the supernatural; the la la land of wishin' & hopin', of mysticism, and relying on prayers and empty promises, the land of wishful thinking and pious, bigoted hypocrites. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 11:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 23610
Hmmmm...well, I did try to debate this....maybe it should have been in the religious section instead of debate, as there is no real debate going on by the author....but rather an affirmation of why she is happy with her choice of belief system. I think author 61763 is making a very valid point. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 12:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
I would like to add one more comment...I can't resist....I don't believe in Satan at all. Studying the history of the myth of Satan and the changes that have occurred in the evolution of the story shows that it is a manmade myth along the lines of the boogey man stories. Satan is merely a scapegoat that people used for bad behavior or things that they do not understand and fear. People have control of their thoughts and actions but it is so much easier to blame it on a mysterious entity that to take responsibility. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 12:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
Deb writes: "Tom is a person who I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong), who has not expereinced a physical sensation of Jesus, but who can believe due to his soul and his intellect being satisfied by his learnings." --------- I have had and continue to experience the physical presence of Jesus in my life, every day. It was my studies that lead me to the point of knowing Christ as my savior. Despite our past head butting, there is one area in which I think Thinker and I are kindred souls - both of us questioned God. The difference is she asked for help from a know-nothing Pastor who told her to shut up and stop causing trouble. I was blessed in the fact the Pastor I turned to for help in finding my starting place in the search for answers ENCOURAGED my questions and told me to keep looking until I found them. Thinker's ex-pastor hardened her heart to God, the man I turned to didn't do that to me. Peace, Tom |
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Date: 11/12/2002 12:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
PapaBryant, And No man standing in mortal flesh caused me (speaking for myself) to Find and Feel Jesus. It took myself, looking for Jesus and looking Past all mortal men, When I found him! So..., addressing EVERYBODY, is Jesus Christ a fake? A phony? Well, this was a debate to PROVE whether he is or is not. So here is the bottom line! The only Proof, is found when the Individual that seeks it, Finds IT! Have faith first, to promote the seeking. Then and only then, will you find your PROOF! Otherwise it cannot be found! Some have already found it, Others will never! So to those here who wants to debate PROOF, that Jesus is who I say he is. "I" cannot produce it for you. Therefore you may gloat in your thoughts of "THINKING" you've won this debate. So injoy your short lived lives. Make the best of it while you can, in this world. Because it is all you will ever have! I'm happy, arn't you? |
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Date: 11/12/2002 1:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
WHAT is the matter with you, Tom? There have been so many times on here where you have made it very clear that you do not listen (READ!) what anyone has to say when answering the question "WHY don't you believe". NO WHERE have I ever mentioned any "pastor" who told me to "shut up", as to the reason why I don't believe. GO BACK UP THERE and read my very first reply to this post. Yeah, come on, I've said it so many times I am sure YOU just skim right over it. You certainly don't want to accept it, as well as several others on this forum who insist I must have "had some bad experiences". EDUCATION.....KNOWLEDGE....was and is MY salvation. Sure, it was unavailable to me for over 40 years; I was not exposed to the truth. Now, I cannot blame ANYONE for teaching me all the lies and deceit all those years in the church, for I honestly and truly believe with all my heart, most people only do that which they themselves have known; what THEY themselves learned from people who were in the dark as well. And so it goes; and will continue, long after you and I are gone from this world. Though The way I see it NOW, Tom, is that IF someone KNOWS the truth, but REFUSES to face it, refuses to....and THEN goes on to force it on innocent children....that I cannot forgive, I cannot excuse. The thoughts of impressions upon the mind of an innocent child......all that fire & brimstone, all that disgusting filth and immorality that is in the Bible; the superstition, the myths ....turns my stomach to no end. Also, I DO wish all you people who have used the words "hardening of the heart" would wake the heck up; learn something new; and stop parrotting all that which you've always heard over all your lives....stop and listen, and learn...THINK! There is not one teeny tiny "hard" anything in this woman's heart. Just a burning desire to SHARE information; educate; and shed just one tiny litttle bit of light and reason into the equasion. Haadam, Your "faith first" request conjurs up a picture of you standing at the bottom of a cliff; "Come on, Jump!; I'll catch you; just have faith!". Sorry, but I gotta stop and look at all the facts, because THIS is IT for me. THIS life, here and NOW, and I'm not about to widdle and twiddle it away, a dreamin' and thinkin' and wishin' for an imaginary "heaven". |
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Date: 11/12/2002 3:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 47166
You know, a long time ago I vowed not to get involved with religious debates, and, I've obviously broken that vow. My reasons for vowing thus are to be seen throughout this post and it's replies. This is the reason: Basically, in a monoreligious debate such as this, where only one religion is specifically mentioned, there are two sides- Those who "know" that the Christian religion is true, and those who "know" that the Christian religion is false. Both of these warring factions find themselves trying to prove to the other one that what they believe is incorrect. The problem arises when one group or the other demands proof, in this case, both factions have made this demand. You see, there is no proof. There is proof that a man named Jesus Christ, son of Joseph, brother of Jason, did indeed exist. There is also proof that he was martyred for a cause by the Romans. There is no proof, however, that he was the son of God, or the saviour of Humanity. Likewise, there is no proof that he wasn't the son of God, and saviour of humanity. All you have to squabble over is your personal beliefs. The interesting thing about personal beliefs is that everyone is right. Every single person who puts forth a personal belief is accurate in every way. This phenominon occurs because what they believe is as true to that as it is to you. Some points of view may turn out to be more "accurate" than others, but there is no way to know which, or if any of them are. The true test of your beliefs is whether or not you get to the point where you're willing to sacrifice the morals of your belief system in order to prove that another person's beliefs are inaccurate, or to silence them all together. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 3:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Well said, Clukinvar. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 3:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
I guess you're correcting me, Tom, but perhaps my point wasn't clear so I'll ask you outright: Have you had a physical encounter with Jesus? Not his "presence", but heard, seen, used your physical senses in believing he was present? God Bless. |
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Date: 11/12/2002 4:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
haadam how am i belittling anyone thats totally bogus im stating FACTS obviously its rude to use facts |
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Date: 11/12/2002 4:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 40089
Thinker I dont think you can handle the ( real Truth ) maybe that's why God hasnt showed you , but believe an if it is His will He will show you, if not He will leave the blinders on for a reason . GOD BLESS |
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Date: 11/12/2002 6:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 10146
clukenvar you said, All you have to squabble over is your personal beliefs. The interesting thing about personal beliefs is that everyone is right. (True! but only untill their personal beliefs "ADVANCE".) Every single person who puts forth a personal belief is accurate in every way. ( True again, but only Until they learn more.., and their belief changes like mine did.) This phenominon occurs because what they believe is as true to that as yours is to you. ( I can still agree with all that!) Now after saying all that, what I feel is being overlooked is this one fact! AS far as "I" (myself)can concider and see it. The fact which is..., I have been "WHERE" the unbeliever in Jesus Christ finds him or herself while their being is in the state of Unbelief! But yet still having somthing of their own personal belief. I was born into that kind of belief system. The kind where you are found to be unbelieving in "JESUS". Remember this though! This debate is about the belief concerning and surrounding Jesus. Not any other religious system! I'm going to repeat myself again when I say, that I have personaly been, and have personaly had a belief exsperience "AGAINST" Jesus from birth. Until the day came, that I found him to be REAL, and True, beyond any kind of doubt that anyone could place before me, because I have a Personal, Physical and Spiritual relationship with him, to continualy confirm to me, that HE is real and there with me. I myself have been in the belief system that others are in which is one "WITHOUT" Jesus. So you see!! I know already where they are, because I myself have been there! But Now, I know somthing (which they cannot yet know, because they have not yet been where I AM!) about the personal Truth about him, cause he is Literaly with me, every moment of the day, whether I speak to him or not, he is still there. Now I'm not trying to cram down your throat somthing I've got, because you just might not want it. But if you should ever decide that you do, you too can have it, but only with Him personaly. He accepts anybody. If only they will have enough faith, that he is who I say he is, and then he will prove to you that he is who He says He is. Peace! |
| Date: 11/12/2002 7:00:00 PM From Authorid: 47166 That may be, Haadaam, but look at it this way- The convert to Judaism "knows" Yaweh (the Jewish name for God). Has felt Yaweh, and has become a follower of Yaweh from that faith. The follower of Islam has "felt" Allah, has "known and experienced Allah just as much as you have experienced Christ. I know, I used to be a Christian. Never as strongly as you, though. When I was little I always doubted it, and tried my hand at many different faiths. I realized, after a time, that I simply had no faith, in anything. This revelation came one day when I was about twelve, and speculating on the theory that this could be the very first nanosecond of existence, and that everything before was just a fictional memory implanted in our minds. Quite the thought for twelve, eh? Anyway, I then realized that I didn't even have faith that the world was the world, and so I began searching for the mystical "truth." What I found was that "truth" varied from person to person, even people holding the same belief system. At first my rather pessimistic mind told me that there was no "Truth," but then I discovered that everything was "true." If someone vehemently believes that two plus two equals eight hundred and forty seven, then, for all intents and purposes, two plus two equals eight hundred and forty seven, to them it is as much a fact as "two plus two equals four" is to us. And who's to say that it doesn't? Just because it's a widely accepted "fact" doesn't mean that it's any more legitimate than eight hundred and forty seven. |
