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Date: 12/17/2002 3:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 42792
and what do you think the risks are to a child who is bore by a mother who doesn't want it? If someone wants to take the risk of having any of the above health problems then that is her business.  |
Date: 12/17/2002 3:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 33925
I agree with NKA  |
Date: 12/17/2002 3:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
good point, I will say that |
Date: 12/17/2002 3:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
This topic is VERY over rated here and written about at least once a month *rolls eyes* I feel the woman who is pregnant can make her own mind up as to what she wants to do and the rest of you keep your roseries out of their ovaries.. it is their decision, and what you believe in may not be what they believe in.. it is not your decision or your choice.. so stop making it so. I think all of you should just stay out of it and learn to deal with what is on your own plate and not some one else's.  |
Date: 12/17/2002 3:48:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
true. but thats why we have adoption  |
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Date: 12/17/2002 3:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 33925
...and I TOTALLY agree with Sur5r!! You go girl!! *applause* |
Date: 12/17/2002 3:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 19772
And the risk to the mother who gives birth to a child she doesn't want or cannot care for...Suicide, life-long depression, child abuse, jail time for endangering a child, mental problems, etc., etc.,... I agree with NKA, I personally would not have an abortion, but it's not for me to decide what is right for another woman. If she decides to take the risks than that is her choice.  |
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Date: 12/17/2002 3:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
*rolls eyes at adoption* Do you know that there are millions of children that the government is now paying for while they await adoption? And some children have waited there entire lives and grow up to be young adults never getting adopted? Adoption is not an option these days... too many already on the list that continues to grow.. what kind of life is it for a child to have no parents and just a "gaurdian" all their growing up life? Think about that. I would rather they just say no in the first place. But who can argue with natural instincts of reproduction in the world? |
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Date: 12/17/2002 4:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
true. but thats why we have adoption |
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Date: 12/17/2002 4:11:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
so, if one of your friend's or children died during the process. your just going to say, "Oh well, she decided to have an abortion. She made the decision, its her fault?" No, I don't think you would. I think you love them to much to turn away. |
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Date: 12/17/2002 4:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
I think the point is missed, but that is ok (-: You are still very young and may not completely understand the world out there as it really is.. in the adult lines of thinking about this issue. May Goddess bless your womb to be fruitful. |
Date: 12/17/2002 4:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 6817
Abortion is stupid....MURDER!  |
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Date: 12/17/2002 4:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 33925
Well then I guess that makes me a murderer Freaq..thats ok, LOL..Ive been called worse. :P |
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Date: 12/17/2002 4:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 19772
Adoption is hardly a choice these days considering you ALWAYS here about these children growing up and tracking down their birth parents. Oh yeah, like your not making a hard enough decision to give away your child but then in 20 years you have to worry about answering all the "Whys" and "How could yous" ..like that wouldn't make you just wanna throw yourself off of a cliff... No adoption is not always an answer. And about the friend thing, if I had a friend who was about to join the army, or go bunjee jumping, or do 100 other things that could possibly endanger their life as long as they were informed, than yes, it is THEIR choice, not mine. I have friends that smoke yes they know the risks, yes they are informed, but just because I love them and don't want them to it doesn't mean I'm gonna chain them in my house and prohibit them from doing it. |
Date: 12/17/2002 4:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 53284
As with any surgical procedure, there are risks associated with an abortion. I think that the risks associated with any elective surgical procedure should be disclosed before the operation.  |
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Date: 12/17/2002 4:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 42792
adoption? Okay so some woman who is a crack adddict and knows she has no intention of stopping heck, she may die from stopping, is supposed to belive that people will line up to adopt her kid? This issue is a dead issue. There will never be an agreement between all parties of what is right or wrong on it. |
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Date: 12/17/2002 4:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
Well, I have gone through the abortion process with two of my dearest friends. One was due to a rape case, and the other was rendering the health of my friend to where she would have died herself if not having an abortion done.. there were NO COMPLICATIONS before, during or after the abortion, except for the sadness my friends endured. In today's modern times, the technology is greater for survival than the risk of what you placed here on your post. After an abortion, it takes three days to get back on your feet, and about a week to feel healed.. the memory however, is a forever thing.. I have dealt with a post-op center for women for over five years, and, after they have aborted their fetus'.. most did not want to do it, but it was medically necessary. Abortion is a needed practice in this world, and if religious implicators would see the other side of things, rather than placing words in the mouth of God that it is wrong, maybe it would be seen as such, that there is always a good side even in the what appears to be totally not good for you or another that shares your opinion. I think God understands more so than mortals do about this.. why else would man be given the knowledge to do this procedure in the first place, after all... I always hear from religious implicators that God gives us the thoughts to act upon.. so, would it be safe to say that God has allowed us an "out" for this type of procedure, something along the lines of like using Jesus to die on a cross to save you from sin?? Abortion may have been created for the same purpose.. and your last comment about "Oh well..." that is showing me the point was missed that everyone is trying to tell you in the first place.. it is their decision.. of course I would grieve, but I would also know they made the decision themselves, with the guideance of their heart tuned to the Higher Source for direction. It is not always used as a birth control method as most religious implicators wish to believe. |
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Date: 12/17/2002 4:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 19772
Very well said Sur5R. *applause* |
Date: 12/17/2002 5:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 17014
I agree with NKA. This is supposed to be a free country, so that is the way we should live-- with our OWN decisions and not those made FOR us. Sur5r is right too. In YOUR opinion there is adoption- not the person who has this problem. Friends- that would be THEIR own decision, Accepting it is a part of being a friend and supporting them -- not preaching to them about this and that. And if the procedure was taken away legally - there would always be 'underground' methods and Dr.'s willing to help their patients for a little extra money. Other methods even more hideous done by the person themselves also. Next I suppose people like you will be fighting for martial law? There is no debate here- it's a CHOICE- FREEDOM of choice.  |
Date: 12/17/2002 5:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 6817
LoL...LL As a person I just love you and look up to you! You're great but I just don't agree w/ abortion at ALL  Hope I didn't hurt your feelings lol. Just another opinion  |
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Date: 12/17/2002 5:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
I am only trying to impose the thought of free will, and the fact that God forgives no matter what.. I think religious implicators are forgetting that, so allow me to be the pin for those balloons out there. *pop* |
Date: 12/17/2002 5:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 55297
YES and NO... if the mother is doing it becuz she cant take care of it or offer it a good home, then yes. but if she uses it for birth control, NO!  |
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Date: 12/17/2002 5:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
*shudders at Kelsey's reply* That is so truthful about the underground thing, or worse yet, self-abortions. OMG how horrible, but yes, it happens now in places, it would become widespread and then death would greatly haunt us for this (thinking of the self done ones), and then... who would God point judgement on for that ??? I dislike to think of that truth in answer. |
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Date: 12/17/2002 6:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
This reminds me of a Nine Inch Nails song that goes, "Head like a hole, blacken your soul... I'd rather die than give you control..." |
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Date: 12/17/2002 7:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
Here is a better solution, the best way for safe-sex, is no-sex until marriage. |
Date: 12/17/2002 9:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 47218
what is your source for this information? I'm sure you pulled it from an objective medical site, not a pro-life site? Because, I've been told that some groups in the pro-life movement (not all, of course) have actually resorted to using misinformation to advance their cause, including grossly exagerated claims about the link between breast cancer and abortion, which has NOT been proven. This claim is usually the tip off that you are reading pro-life propoganda.  |
Date: 12/18/2002 1:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 34814
NKA And Sur5r sum up what I would say....  |
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Date: 12/18/2002 4:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 53683
Why cant women just get birth control. If you know that you will be having sex then get on the pill save some headaches, money, and a lot of guilt. |
| Date: 12/18/2002 10:39:00 AM From Authorid: 37354 Why would God give us the knowledge to make nuclear weapons unless he wants us to use them? Since all these children in foster homes would have been better off aborted, why not euthanize them now? What is wrong with a woman getting information of the possible adverse effects of abortions? What is wrong with making an informed choice? Are people here really pro-choice or are they pro-abortion? Hugo |
| Date: 12/18/2002 11:02:00 AM From Authorid: 37354 The evidence linking an abortion of a first pregnancy and increased risk of breast cancer is pretty solid, to those not immersed in pro-abortion propaganda.Hugo |
| Date: 12/18/2002 11:20:00 AM From Authorid: 37354 Abortion is probably the only issue i agree with Bill Clinton on, "It should be legal, safe and RARE." Those who roll their eyes at alternatives to abortions are pro-abortion, not pro-choice. Hugo |
| Date: 12/18/2002 11:29:00 AM From Authorid: 37354 As for the adoption thing. Most of these kids in foster care have been forcibly removed from their home. They cannot be adopted until the biological parents have been legally removed from guardianship rights. This can take years. Meanwhile people are going to Eastern Europe, Korea, Vietnam and the Phillipines to adopt children.Hugo |
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Date: 12/18/2002 2:21:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
Sur I somewhat agree with what you said. But I do believe that (you brought up a religious point of view, so I'll give mine) we are made in the image of God and He formed us in our mother's womb. Now yes, if it is incase of complications and it is vital to the mother's life (or there was no chance of the baby living) then yes I would say it is ok, BUT I detest that innocent children are killed as a use of birth control ((not refering to rape, in which case I still don't think that it is excusable, but I still have to work that out)). I think if a woman can't take care of her consequences, then she doesn't need to be having sex. Unless of course her husband wants her to have one ((which is what happened to my mom TWICE! my dad wanted her to kill both me and my sister cuz he didn't want kids. we're both alive and well thank God)). But she still has the object of leaving them. I personally think that any man who doesn't want to help take care of his baby is a deadbeat ((wow I stray from the subject alot, lol)) |
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Date: 12/18/2002 4:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 47218
Not it's not, Hugo. Here's is the American Cancer Society's commentary on the matter: "The largest, and probably the most reliable, study of this topic was conducted recently in Denmark. In that study, all Danish women born between 1935 and 1978 (1.5 million women) were linked with The National Registry of Induced Abortions and with the Danish Cancer Registry. So, all information about their abortions and their breast cancer came from registries, was very complete, and was not influenced by recall bias. After adjusting for known breast cancer risk factors, the researchers found that induced abortion(s) had no overall effect on the risk of breast cancer. In this very large group of women, 1,338 cases of breast cancer occurred in women who had terminated pregnancies. The size of this study and the manner in which it was conducted provides substantial evidence that induced abortion does not affect a woman's risk of developing breast cancer. There are other, smaller studies pointing to the fact that abortion does not cause, nor contribute to, the development of breast cancer. The topic of abortion and breast cancer highlights many of the most challenging aspects of epidemiologic studies of human populations and how those studies do or do not translate into public health guidelines. The issue of abortion generates passionate personal and political viewpoints, regardless of any possible disease connection. Breast cancer is the second most common cancer in women, and it can be a life-threatening disease that most women fear. Still, the public is not well-served by false alarms, even with both the exposure and the disease are of great importance and interest to us all. At the present time, the scientific evidence does not support a causal association between induced abortion and breast cancer." You can the read the full article for yourself by following this link: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/cri/content/cri_2_6x_can_having_an_abortion_cause_or_contribute_to_breast_cancer.asp?sitearea=cri |
| Date: 12/18/2002 5:33:00 PM From Authorid: 37354 The ACS is a liberal organization. These ADJUSTMENTS are quite controversial. Many studies have shown a link and they also have a pretty good hypothesis of why the interruption of a first pregnancy leads to increased risks.Hugo |
| Date: 12/18/2002 5:46:00 PM From Authorid: 37354 A much better site which includes the wishy wahy statements of the liberal ACS is www.abortionbreastcancer.com Hugo |
Date: 12/18/2002 9:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 60162
Thank you NKA, thats far more important.  |
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Date: 12/19/2002 6:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 47218
the statistics are only controversial to pro-lifers, who want to hype up the link to breast cancer to scare the bejeezus out of women. It is amazing what you can do with statistics if you can find an educated, persuasive individual to interpret them to fit your views. I followed the link that you provided to a supposedly "middle of the road" site. A breast cancer site dedicated exclusively to the link between breast cancer, abortion and birth control that advocates women having larger families at an early age as a means of prevention. hm. I smelled a rat. So I performed a search on all the names listed on the advisory board. ALL of them lead to pro-life and religious right sites. Some of them very directly. Babette Francis, for instance, is the national and international coordinator of Endeavour Inc.-- an organization set up to "counter feminism, defend the rights of the unborn and the traditional family." Jim Finnegan is the co-founder of "vote life america." If the acs gets the axe as an authorative source for being too liberal, then the Coalition on Abortion Breast Cancer most certainly should be nixed for having a covertly conservative agenda. |
| Date: 12/19/2002 8:59:00 AM From Authorid: 37354 If they are only controversial to pro-lifers, why is it doctors in Australia being sued by women claiming the doctor did not reveal the risk of breast cancer from induced abortions are settling out of court. They obviously fear a jury when given the evidence will rule in the womans favor. Your infamous study used a cohort factor that automatically eliminated increased abortions as a factor in the increase of breast cancers among women.Leave out this adjustment and there was a 44% increased risk of breast cancer to those who had an abortion. A very shoddy study. Lab tests on animals confirm the link. The daling study showed a 50% increased risk. In this study all 12 of the women in the study who had a family history of breast cancer and had an abortion before age 18 had breast cancer. This information needs to be presented to women, so they can make an informed choice. Imagine being a 16 year girl, with a family history of breast cancer, who is not given the results of the Daling study by some abortion salesman. These salesmen are being rightfully sued. Hugo |
| Date: 12/19/2002 9:03:00 AM From Authorid: 37354 The sad part is, Mollycat, that this issue is so politicized that it makes getting to the truth more difficult. Yes the site is definitely a pro-life site. It does provide pretty detailed information on even conflicting studies however. Sadly this is an issue where as I stated earlier politics is interfering with research. Hugo |
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Date: 12/19/2002 12:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 42792
I believe that there definitely exists more risk for breast cancer after having aborted a first pregnancy. Without all of the research, it makes sense. If you understand what cancer is then it should make sense. |
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Date: 12/19/2002 12:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 42792
However, having said that, I do not believe that is reason to make it illegal. No one should be able to interfere with our personal lives in such a way. If you are against it then don't ever do it, if you are in the situation that you need to do it and see nothing wrong with it than do it, if you are not the one who is pregnant then mind your own business. |
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Date: 12/19/2002 1:29:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
*No one should be able to interfere with our personal lives in such a way... If you are not the one who is pregnant then mind your own business.* NKA you said this. Well, then that is saying that we should allow murderers to go and kill people cuz it is none of our business. We should let rapists and robbers and people who have mental problems (people who are Schizophrenia, drug and alcohol disorders, suicidal people, anorexia/bulemia (sp), HDD, ADD, etc) run free and do their own thing cuz it is none of our business. |
Date: 12/26/2002 9:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 42464
Okay so I think that everything that you have stated here is true. And I believe that Abortion is a stupid choice. If someone doesn't want a child than they should stop having sex. This was a very informative post.  |
Date: 12/26/2002 9:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 27270
JFreak, you said above "Unless of course her husband wants her to have one"----you kind of lost me there-are you saying it would be okay for a wife to have an abortion if her husband asked her to? That makes no sense  |
Date: 12/27/2002 9:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 3321
I just wanted to point out, for statistical evidence, you excluded the amount of women in the US who have abortions. All of what you have listed above happen to relatively few women.  |
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Date: 12/27/2002 10:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 3321
Jesus Freak, you just used a very weak and poor argument for freedom of choice in any matter. We have laws that govern society, but we are allowed our shadow of privacy by the government, and that includes rule over ones own body. I am not against adoption, but not a lot of children are being adopted. Especially now with a dipping economy-families cannot afford to adopt children, and government subsidies to do so are not enough. Both sides of the spectrum here use propogandized information-pro lifers want to believe abortion is a form of birth control, and quite honestly that is a ridiculous assumption. Do you honestly think women would rather endure a surgical procedure rather than take a pill every day or a shot every few months? Allowing control of one's body does not allow for the extreme actions that some seem to think-just because I have control of my ovaries does NOT mean I am going to run out and strangle my neighbor, nor does it mean I'll run to the first abortion clinic I see. I don't care for abortion, but history has shown us that we, as a country, need the procedure to be legal for medical reasons. Unless, of course, you'd rather have your child, sister, mother dead in a back alley from unsterilized tools. Or maybe even a coat hanger. Gruesome, but true. Do some real research and get ALL the sides. |
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Date: 12/28/2002 8:34:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
no thumb. Sry. I mean that she should leave him if her husband wants her to have one. |
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Date: 12/28/2002 3:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
Persephone, what the difference if they die my sterilized or unsterilized tools, the risks are the same either way. |
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Date: 12/29/2002 5:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
Jesus Freak, there is a big difference between sterilized and unsterilized conditions. Let us, for example, take a routine Doctors visit. You go into the doctors office, and you expect the instruments your doctor has to be sterile. Instead, she uses a stethoscope that has not been cleansed, a tongue depressor that has been used countless times before, and a needle that she stuck someone else with. Now you cannot tell me that by using DIRTY and UNSTERILIZED objects, your risk of infection and possibly death did not dramatically rise. It is the same, actually worse, with invasive procedures that involve cutting tissue or mixing of bodily fluids when the instruments are dirty. It matters a great deal the conditions. |
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Date: 12/29/2002 5:23:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
And who said that the doctors are going to used sterilized stuff to cut and suck the baby out? And you still didn't answer my question. A woman could still die from back ally abortions just like she could if she died from a legal one. ... did that makes sense. My english is really bad lately. I hang around red necks too much. lol |
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Date: 12/29/2002 7:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
I don't think you understand...It is safer now to have an abortion than it was in the 60s, or it would be if we made it illegal. Making abortion illegal will increase back alley abortions which by definition are unsterilized. Right now, by law, offices are sterile. And to answer the question that you never quite asked-it does make a difference to have senseless death when the process could be safe and legal. |
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Date: 1/1/2003 9:15:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
still she's dying... whats the difference. |
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Date: 1/1/2003 2:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
How difficult is it to understand that not every person who has an abortion will have these complications? And then, on top of that, if there are no complications, there would be if the clinic were not sterile, therefore where a person would be healthy, they would become sick. I do not quite understand how a person can be so sympathetic to the fetus yet not to another human. It is not your place to judge. |
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Date: 1/2/2003 8:21:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
::Sigh:: I guess we'll never agree... Friends? ::extends hand:: |
Date: 1/2/2003 6:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
 Sure. I know that we'll never agree on the legality of it, but I am positive that we can agree that we don't like it. Friends |
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