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Is Gay Marriage Against The Constitution? For Warrior Spirit-Question Answered

  Author:  15070  Category:(Debate) Created:(7/11/2003 10:42:00 PM)
This post has been Viewed (8203 times)

Supporting Gay Marriage by Cierra Bolin



"Whenever a society wants to demonize a particular group, it prohibits them from marrying." (California assemblywoman Sheila Kuehl on state governments legislating against gay marriages)



Among the most important, controversial issues in America today is the issue of gay marriage. A Hawaii court recently ruled that the government must show "compelling state interest" for denying same-sex couples the right to marry, and the possibility of equal access to marriage is becoming greater every year (National Organization for Women). The only opposition to allowing couples of the same sex to marry stems from bias and is a form of discrimination. Many feel that gay marriage is a disgusting prospect. These people are victims of the "ew!" factor. This mysterious idea of romance between people of the same sex "grosses them out", and they let this disgust affect their treatment of people who experience this romance. However, the liberties of American citizens should be more important than any outside party's reaction of "ew!". Therefore, same-sex partners should be allowed to marry.

The opposition asserts that allowing same-sex marriages should not be legal on the basis that the bible condemns homosexuality, and our Christian-centered society should support the morals of the majority. Several, including James Wilson, have argued against gay marriage using a biblical verse from Leviticus as evidence, in which sex between men is forbidden. The bible presents execution as a just punishment (Wilson 302). This may have been acceptable during biblical times, but it is no longer legal for religion to dictate law. While religion may provide a certain community with an attitude towards homosexuality, this community has no right to impose their beliefs on others. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti). The United States Government must remain impartial to all religious groups. This applies also to laws or policies which stem from the religious ideas of lawmakers. Therefore, the religious policies and moralities of one group should not have legal advantages over another. This is applicable to gay marriage because when someone is quoting from the bible in order to convince someone to enforce their religious ideas, those involved in the issue at hard are at the mercy of a religion that they do not necessarily believe in. The argument that the bible condemns homosexuality and therefore gay marriage should not be allowed is void. It brings religion into an area where it has no relevance, and where it's influence would be unconstitutional.

The opposition suggests that same-sex marriage should not be allowed because, being of the same sex, these partners are unable to fulfill the principal function of marriage- creating a family. Chuck Morse argues against gay marriage and says that, "Homosexual behavior contradicts natural law; a simple observation of the nature of the male and female anatomy provides the necessary proof" (Morse). He is arguing that inability to produce offspring should disqualify an individual from legal marriage. If we follow the oppositions' "anatomical possibility" theory, then who's to say that this line of logic applies only to homosexuals? Any post-menopausal woman or sterile man should be scoffed at for applying for marriage, and told that their desire to marry was unnatural. Andrew Sullivan illustrates this best when he says, "No civil marriage license is granted on the condition that the couple bear children; and the marriage is no less legal and no less defensible if it remains childless" (Sullivan 299). Marriages are not granted after the couple can prove they can physically bear children. The argument that marriage must be between a man and a woman on the basis of human anatomy is invalid. If you are going to use the standard that children must be at least a possible fruit of the union, then that rule must be applied to all people applying for marriage.

Partners of the same sex must be allowed to marry, as the United States of America was founded on the basic of civil rights for all. The Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are...endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" (http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html). Webster's clarifies the meaning of the word liberty as "a particular right, freedom, etc." (Webster's 348). It also gives reference to another definition stating they are "rights...without hindrance except in the interests of public welfare" (Webster's 114). Liberty is taken to mean rights which are granted to everyone, unless they are harmful to the public welfare. Public welfare, not the sensibilities of the public. And the sensibilities of the public is really the only thing that stands to be harmed in the marriage of same-sex couples. And since this is not harmful to the public welfare, the right to marry anyone one chooses is included in the rights the United States of America stated were "self-evident" and "unalienable" in its Declaration of Independence.

Excluding same-sex couples from marriage is a blatant act of discrimination and sexism. Andrew Sullivan states, "So long as intelligent people understand that homosexuals are emotionally and sexually attracted to the same sex as heterosexuals are to the opposite sex, then there is no human reason on earth why [marriage] should be granted to one group and not the other" (Sullivan 57). Gay marriage must be allowed in order to retain the democratic nature of this country. While the government as a whole may not approve of a marriage between members of the same sex, they have no right to impose their sense of morality on these couples. Essentially, any instance where a gay couple is denied something because they are a gay couple, is discrimination. In 1996, a Hawaii court ruled that refusing marriage licenses to same-sex couples is sex discrimination that violates the Hawaii constitution (National Organization for Women). Their line of logic was that if a man can marry a woman, but a woman cannot marry a woman, then that was sex discrimination. As sex discrimination is against constitutional law, then the governments act of denying same-sex marriage is clearly unconstitutional.

In closing, gay marriage should, and will, become legalized. American history is speckled with the stories of different groups fighting for their rights. The country was fought for and founded opon the idea of religious rights for all people, and we currently enjoy these rights. Women are enjoying the right to vote and run for office. Men and women of all racial backgrounds can vote and run for office. Just recently, the right to marry outside of your race was won. Soon, Americans will be allowed to be legally married to whomever they have fallen in love with, sex and gender notwithstanding. A country full of so much diversity cannot go on for so long without realizing their lack of compassion and empathy. If this policy of lawful discrimination is allowed to continue, then the liberty and freedom this country was founded upon have been lost.



http://www.glbthistoryday.com/opinion.htm

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Replies:      
Date: 7/11/2003 10:44:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    p.s.....I "cut-and-pasted" this one.....;)  
Date: 7/11/2003 10:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Hmmm, interesting. Of course, this IS dealing with man's rules and laws...the constitution, so it may very well not be against same-sex marriages. For those that follow God's laws, his laws supercede the constitutions with regard to this issue.  
Date: 7/11/2003 10:59:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    Thanks LSG. It is amazing how some believe allowing gay marriages will change the Constitution, when in fact, allowing them will only further enforce the Constitution, and an individual's right to the pursuit of happiness.  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:04:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    You Choose, is you go out and do something the Bible says to do, but is against man's laws, then be prepared to find yourself in man's prison. This is not about God's law, as his law only pertains to those who subscribe to it. This is about the law of America, and the Constitution of this land has nothing in it that would make gay marriages wrong. Remember, this is America, and we are free. This is not Afghanistan, where the Taliban rules our lives, although a lot of people I know on USM would prefer it this country were more like Afghanistan was a few years ago.  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:08:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    WS.... As far as I know and the rest of reality does.... I AM entitled to state my opions on this site so long as I am not offensive or vulgar. I can say what I please and YOU don't have the right to dictate my words. Please keep your misguided statements directed away from me if your not going to discuss things in a productive manner. I directed my comment in a very general way about the post. There was NOTHING offensive about it to anyone.  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:10:00 PM  From Authorid: 53052    as i commented in the other post(an dno one seems to notice*L*) putting god/religion aside for a moment... a man and a woman only knowing eachother a week can turn around and get married in the eyes of the law(heck it could be a day!! and yes it happens often!!) yet a single sex couple(gay or lesbian) have been together in a VERY commited relationship for 20 years doesn't have the same rights?? what makes the straight couples relationship more valid then the single sexed(gay/lesbian) relationship?? how is that equality  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:12:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    You are more than welcome, WS. You Choose, God's Laws are only applicable to those who follow that belief system. Now, the constitution will not be changed by same sex marriage. Because it was not forbidden by same-sex marriage.  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:13:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    I never challenged that. I said the same thing in different words.  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:15:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Still trying to figure out why no one else see that in my first comment?????  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:16:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    my neighbors, ladies in their 60's have been togather since 1971. Tris cannot even LEGALLY take Margaret off of life-support if needed, authorize medical treatment if needed, collect benefits should Margaret die....the list goes on. 1971! That is what, 32 years????!?  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:18:00 PM  From Authorid: 61977    We will see if it changes, WS. I beleive it will, just as I beleive His will, will be done.  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:19:00 PM  From Authorid: 53052    LSG that is what i'm talking about... that isn't right... and it isn't right that her family no matter how distant she is from them gets to hold that right OVER long time partner  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:19:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    You Choose-I did address your first comment. That is "your God", not MY God(dess). And, correct me if I am wrong, your God commanded "Render Unto Cesaer, What Is Cesaer's" Correct? When in Rome...?  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:21:00 PM  From Authorid: 53052    i think they will take the idea and follow with it like canada(i hate to say it but canada is leading in this) they have changed the wording or "marriage" and have left it up to each province to make the choice and have left it up to each church to make the choice  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:22:00 PM  From Authorid: 53052    and YES churches ARE marrying LEGALLY gay couples  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:22:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    Yes, it is tragic. Same as the Tampa Police Office, who's life-Partner (they had a "Commitment Ceremony") cannot collect her benefits. Nor could she make the decisions on how her Lover was even buried! How right is that!??! It's not...*deep sigh*  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:25:00 PM  From Authorid: 53052    LSG is isn't right... what is more sad is she could have married a man she never knew the day before and he who knows nothing about her has more rights then the YEARS and DECADES her lover has shared with her  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:26:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Okay, I guess. I'll be leaving now since I came here, made my initial general comment and did not intend to truly debate it... because my opinion will not change anyway. Good night all.  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:27:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    You Choose, you do have a right to your opinion. What I am stating is that the Bible is not the lawbook we use in this country. The Constitution is the basis for our laws, and no where in that document does it state that the Bible will be used to prescribe laws for this people of this country. The Supreme Court just made a decision which basically supports the tenet that religous law does not supercede the laws of this country. After the recent war in Afghanistan, which was a war against an opprsive religous government, the high court did not have much choice but to rule that way.  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:36:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Did I ever contradict that here? Uh, I don't think so.......  
Date: 7/11/2003 11:58:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Good night everyone. :0)  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:03:00 AM  From Authorid: 53052    you choose do you think everyone should be created and treated equal no matter what race or sex or lifestyle or religion??  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:05:00 AM  From Authorid: 34487    Why are you asking me this?  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:08:00 AM  From Authorid: 34487    How does that have anything to do with anything? Pat Robertson is FAR from sinful in my opinion. Just because a person is a christian doesn't mean that bad things and evil don't happen to them. That's part of living on Earth in a human body.  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:10:00 AM  From Authorid: 61977    Are you saying AZ that all who get sick is a punishment. This is getting funny to me now when it is sad actually.  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:12:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    You Choose-I am a Cancer Survivor (5 years). My Mother died 5/15/99 from Cancer. I was making a point. Those who talk of "God's Wraith" sometimes find themselves having to explain....  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:13:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    MMN-did you mean that comment for me?  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:14:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    it is 3:15am my time-we will continue this later. NO, Cancer is NEVER FUNNY.  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:17:00 AM  From Authorid: 34487    Everyone is suceptible to the WRATH of EVIL. I don't think God gives anyone a WRATH. I also don't think ANYONE deserves to be diagnosed with cancer. I also have had someone in my family die from cancer so I understand the devistation but don't feel that it has a place in this discussion.  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:19:00 AM  From Authorid: 61977    I did not mean that disease is funny nor sickness. I was merely saying that association with sickness and God's wrath in the matters we are discussing here is off the subject compltely and it was amusing to me that it was even brought up. NO LS. IT IS NOT FUNNY  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:20:00 AM  From Authorid: 61977    Go You choose. I am there.  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:20:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    sorry you two missed the irony.....too bad. It was a good point. Nice re-direct  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:22:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    Okay You Choose completely dominated this one YET my name is in here...LOL...Az didn't make any comments on this until now..LOL  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:23:00 AM  From Authorid: 61977    Yes that was my mistake sorry...it is late though and I am tired. LOL  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:25:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    'night all-till later.....  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:27:00 AM  From Authorid: 34487    No LSG... there wasn't any irony to be had, only cruelty in my opinion.  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:35:00 AM  From Authorid: 34487    AZ...yah you're right, I guess I did dominate this a bit! LOL....sorry! :)  
Date: 7/12/2003 12:40:00 AM  From Authorid: 53052    you choose i just want to know where you stand on it.... i guess you don't want to answer... is there anything you see wrong with the question??(please dont be offended but i see no reason why you should be)  
Date: 7/12/2003 3:30:00 AM  From Authorid: 24924    "His laws supercede the Constitutions with regard to this issue".....*stares in shock* I think the grand champions and fighters for LIBERTY, the Framers of the Constitution, just rolled over in their grave at such a statement. It is in complete opposition to ALL that they stood for! *shakes head*  
Date: 7/12/2003 3:42:00 AM  From Authorid: 62104    I personally don't think that the same sex should marry. I am a young woman with the old fashioned belief that a couple (of opposite sex) can be together forever if they want without marrying, I don't believe it is a sin to have personal relations before marrige so I guess I'm not too old fashioned but If they do marry, I would believe it would be for the main purpose of wanting to bring children into the relationship. I'm not trying to say that you should get married just because you have children (I'm not married myself but have 2 children with my partner) I just mean that in my opinion, the main reason for a couple to marry was to have children, so if two people of the same sex were to marry, what would be the reason?? They cant have children unless they adopt but then I don't think that same sex partners should consider that option (I believe a child needs a normal family invironment with a mother and a father- but that's a whole nother issue). Same sex partners can still enjoy each others love and companionship without being married, I mean what's the difference anyway? I've been engaged to my fiance for 6 years, yes we do plan to marry eventually but even if we don't, it won't matter to me because I still know we'll always be together no matter what. I am trying to be sensible about this matter without comming off as a racist, because I'm certainly not one. I stand by my belief so NO, I would not support this issue of same sex marriges. Amanda1  
Date: 7/12/2003 3:44:00 AM  From Authorid: 62104    Oops, I didn't really read all the info so I argued the wrong debate. Sorry, Amanda1  
Date: 7/12/2003 5:18:00 AM  From Authorid: 10245    Amanda1~ since you have been together for so long... even though you did not have a ceremony... you are considered "common law spouse", which entitles you to all the benefits of someone who IS married... You will be entitled to collect his life insurance and his pension, you have the abibity to make medical decisions for him, and you can carry each other on medical insurance policies... gay couples never receive "common law" status as the laws are written. I have no problem with same sex marriages and believe that anyone who commits themselves to another human being should be able to share the benfits that they work so hard for, as well.  
Date: 7/12/2003 6:09:00 AM  From Authorid: 15394    really isn't the government trying to regulate morality by sticking thier noses into marrital issues?? And, the ONLY reason for marriage is NOT just to procreate.... I am well past my child-bearing days, and I am not married, does that mean that I should never be allowed to marry because I cannot procreate??? Nope! seems to me it is one side of the coin trying to dominate the other and it won't work for long :)  
Date: 7/12/2003 6:12:00 AM  From Authorid: 47296    LSG, I guess it is hard for some to see the irony when it is one of their own that is being talked about. Robertson felt the pain and suffering we faced from 9-11 was punishment for our sins, and many agreed with him. When he faces personal pain and suffering though, those same people do not believe it could possibly be ounishment for past sins. Yes, there is a strong irony there. I will tell you another irony. On the day the Supreme Court made their decision on the Texas case, I watched Jerry Falwell's interveiw on television that night. I fully expected him to totally go off on the high court, and say their decision was wrong and would hurt America. I was wrong though. His repsonse was one of total tolerance for a people that he does not totally agree with. He said there was no use having laws on the books that were not enforcable, and that regardless of his personal convictions, he could never give his support to any such law if it were ever again brought up. If one looks at the last paragraph above, they will see that personal rights have been fought for since this country was first formed. Today, it is the members of the LGBT tht are fighting for their rights. As with all rights battles in the past, they will eventually win their battle. It is the nature of our country to recognize the rights of individuals, even if some diasagree with those rights. We shall have our rights.  
Date: 7/12/2003 1:05:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Midnighty, Actually... I had to go to bed since it was almost 4am here where I live. As far as where I stand on the issue, obviously I do not agree with same-sex marriages and nothing will ever change my opinion on this issue. I didn't post my view on this issue on this post because I didn't think it was necessary. Hope that answers your question.  
Date: 7/12/2003 1:30:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    You choose, I agree with you.  
Date: 7/12/2003 6:22:00 PM  From Authorid: 36967    You Choose, right on
  
Date: 7/12/2003 6:23:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Thanks guys... :)  
Date: 7/12/2003 6:27:00 PM  From Authorid: 36967    Another Point, you people complain about when a Preacher like Jerry Falwell blames Gays for 9-11, etc. But yet, you people say nothing about when someone like Rosie Odonell blaming Christians for the Murder of Matthew Sheperd, as well as other problems that gays go through. Yet someone like Jerry Falwell makes comments against gays, you have problems with, but no problems with people like Rosie Odonell making comments agianst Christians. It sound like you people have double standards and full of hyprocricy.
  
Date: 7/12/2003 7:19:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    DEREK-I do BLAME "Christian" extremists who attempted to justify the murder of Matthew Shepard on sound "biblical" principles. FB is agreeing with You Choose because her nose was slapped so soundly earlier. Ignorance, HON, is not a "family value". Neither is "hate". WS-I heard about Jerry Falwell's comments today on talk radio. Certain Minister's were INFURIATED by what they believed to be a "lack of faith". My favorate statement, made today by a radio preacher, I swear this is true, "If Thomas Jefferson were alive to day he would be rolling in his grave".<----and----> Kinsey (of the Kinsey Sexual behavior report/study) was a "homosexual-s&m afficiado, who got his information from people in prison. And we know THEY are all gay". :P Yep, good representation there. Maybe we can be JUST like them when we grow-up  
Date: 7/12/2003 7:31:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    ^^^^oooops.... I meant GASPING for air.  
Date: 7/12/2003 7:49:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    Look, let agree on one thing...I don't not think like you. I don't believe like you. But, I am willing to discuss a topic in a calm, rational manner. So, lets-agree-to-disagree, o.k.?  
Date: 7/12/2003 7:53:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    I've been rational here and yes... I always AGREE to Disagree. I believe in it so much that I even wrote a post about a while back.  
Date: 7/12/2003 7:56:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    LOL...o.k. I was actually talking ABOUT you, but yeah, maybe it's time to stop & review. I am not interested in fighting WITH you. I will DEBATE you, but I have no problem with you. My answers do make sense. Trust me, a few people have already gotten the point quite clearly. ~Peace~  
Date: 7/12/2003 7:58:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    You Choose-I spent the day in the pool, working on my tan, had a most excellent dinner of Taco's (my Favorates) & I am in WAY too good a mood for quarrels. So, let's give it a rest o.k.?  
Date: 7/12/2003 8:27:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    I'm not fighting with you. I already agreed to disagree. I do that on a regular basis around here.  
Date: 7/12/2003 10:14:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    You Choose, I have bashed no one. There are supposed Christians on this board that bash enough for all of us. Derek, your comments mean nothing to me. You have shown your true colors in the past, and in the oriental fashion, I have seen fit to turn my back on you. LSG, there is no way to ever make certain people understand that their religous beliefs are a personal matter, and are not the laws of this land.  
Date: 7/12/2003 10:29:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    I will relate to all here something that happened about a year ago in Montgomery, Alabama. There was a support rally being held at the Capitol building for Judge Roy Moore. This rally was attended by about 50 "Christians" who wholeheartedly supported Judge Moore and his stance on gays and lesbians. Across the street, there were over 200 members of the LGBT community and their family and friends standing in opposition. I, along with MsPriss, were among those present in that opposition. Near us were several Atheist. As the Christians were walking up to the Capitol building, they had to pass right by the opposition members. Some of these Christians spit at members of the LGBT community, some cursed them, and at one point, police officers had to tell several Christians, one of whom was a preacher, to move back across the street to their rally or face arrest. This preacher and several of his congregation were getting up in the faces of the Atheist and LGBT members and trying to provoke a fight. As the rallies went on, we sat and listened to several speakers who supported Judge Moore. The shock however, came when one his supporters stood at the podium, looked across the street at those of us in opposition, and stated that he applauded our conduct and demeaner, that not once had he seen us raise our voices, make threatening gestures, or make any rude or uncalled for remarks to anyone present. Right then, at that moment, we all realized that we had won a major victory. Although we were prevoked, spat at, cursed, and even threatened, we stood silent behind our signs and banners in respect for any others that may have been around. Our silent voices spoke louder that day than any speaker who rose to that podium. That was one victory. There have been many more since then. There will be many more in the days to come. We will not be denied our rights.  
Date: 7/13/2003 4:09:00 AM  From Authorid: 62187    First of all, let me immediately state that I consider myself a Christian. I am not bashing those that truly follow Christ's teachings. However, there are many protesting against the GLBT community, of which I am also a member, that have no idea of what Christ would say on this matter. I am not presuming to know that either, and never said I do. It seems to me that many of the opinions, of self-proclaimed 'CHRISTIANS' on this divisive issue, come out of the Old Testament, specifically Leviticus. The last time I checked Leviticus was the book of ancient rules of conduct given to the tribes of Israel, as they wandered the desert. The tribe of Levi were the priests of their day. Moses and his brother Aaron were of the tribe of Levi. Scholars believe they authored the book of Leviticus. I mentioned this only because that predates Jesus Christ, by thousands of years.
When Christ walked this earth he gave us the New Covenant. Through faith in him, we shall be saved. The old rules of Leviticus were supplanted by this New Covenant. Christ himself did not subscribe to all of Leviticus, remember. Even though he was Jewish, He healed many on the Sabbath. He associated with the 'unclean' peoples. Paul when founding the church of Rome successfully argued that the old rules need not apply to all Christians. Hence we do not follow the strict Jewish dietary requirements.
My point is that I am tired of being bashed for being part of the GLBT community by those that blindly follow the indoctrination of the church to which they attend. If you wish to follow the rules of Leviticus, great but follow all of them. Hypocrisy is using the Bible to your benefit, while ignoring its message. I find that is true all to often. Should anyone be able to quote Christ in his open condemnation of the GLBT community I would be happy to concede. However I have never found such statements to exist.
Therefore I close in support of Warrior Spirit, by agreeing that Gay marriage should not be prohibited. Our government's purpose is to protect the minority, as in a democratic republic such as ours the majority tends to oppress all others. By legitimizing gay marriage they would be taking the enlightened path in the highest tradition's of our nation's founders. Thank you <<<Baby Girl Sandi>>>
Date: 7/13/2003 9:34:00 AM  From Authorid: 36967    I have friends that are Gay, and many of them agree with me that many of the Gay Rights are going too far in many cases. I am a very tolerant person. I have asked a very honest Question, and yet many people refuse to answer the question, maybe that shows that these people are the ones being intolerant. WS I dare to say that it is you who has shown your true colors.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:48:00 AM  From Authorid: 47296    Derek, how is anyone to believe anything you say. You came on here saying you were once gay, but then your comments never once pointed to you having ever been gay. When you talk about your "gay friends", the arguements you use go against anything that a person in the gay community would use. I believe you are blowing smoke in trying to get others to believe you. You want to know my true colors, why not message Baby Girl Sandi and ask her my true colors. She has known me for amost half a year now, and has seen some of the work I do. In fact, some of that work has been on her behalf. I am intolerant of one thing only, and that is ignorance, because there is no reason for anyone to remain ignorant in this day and time. Rights for members of the LGBT community are about one thing, and one thing only. That is equeal treatment and protection under the law, as prescribed by the law, and by the Constitution and other freedom documents of this country. I have seen the law twisted and perverted so that it can be used against members of teh LGBT community. I have seen judges uses their own discretion when the law was vague to deny members of the LGBT comunity their legal rights. I have fought this discrimination and have won. You do not know me Derek, not the true me, and you never will, until such time as you open your eyes to the truths of this country and the people living in it.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 15394    What question drkptrs???  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:55:00 AM  From Authorid: 15394    ps*people that start with "I have friends that are ______" often set their opposition on edge. That is like saying that you differentiate between yourself and the _______ as if you are somehow more understood or complete if you can throw their minority group into the mix... jmo  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:41:00 AM  From Authorid: 47296    Derek, to answer your questions, maybe the reason you did not hear the complaints is because when the truth is spoken , there is nothing to complain about. If you will go back and read my comments on Jerry Falwell, you will find that I applauded him for his comments. They were the truth. Members of teh Christian community were upset him, and went on national telelvison to let the world know they were upset with his comments. They expected Falwell to go on Crossfire and and totally blast teh Supreme Court for their decision. Instead, he agreed that they made the right decision. Like a pack of circling vultures, the preachers and other members of the Christian community quickly began blasting Falwell for his comments. I have to wonder, why did the Christian community jump Falwell so badly for speaking the truth?  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:49:00 AM  From Authorid: 36967    I see that point you made. That is true.
  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:50:00 AM  From Authorid: 36967    I was wrong, and embarrassing.
  
Date: 7/13/2003 11:59:00 AM  From Authorid: 22080    wow im lost so im just gonna sit back and watch  
Date: 7/13/2003 3:40:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    WS-I agree with the "turning your back" on unpleasant people. I ignore them. Unless they say something SO ludicrous, and then I bang my head against the wall AGAIN. LOL...there is a certain irony in supposed Christians attacking & slandering others, in the name of God. Some people may never, ever understand "LOve One Another", nor "My greatest commandment, Love Your Neighbor As Yourself". I did show this post & a few others to MY friends & family over the weekend. The majority of whom, are in fact, Christians. Their response to my Pat Robertson comment? If a Pat Robertson said "Scott Cunningham-Wiccan , Author died of AIDS as a result of being a sinner", no one would blink. I think Barb-DeerHart said it best. She wrote a post on being a "living witness". Very profound. Derek, you once believed you were Gay? That would explain your extreme reactions to some topics, I guess. But, I agree with WS-I don't really see it. WS-I find it offensive that some people feel they can demand an explaination or apology from me. More USM'ers will be finding out, I am tired of giving them too much power. Especially when they are negative. WS-thank you for educating people. I, for one, have learned much from you & Miss Priss. ~Peace~  
Date: 7/13/2003 7:03:00 PM  From Authorid: 20296    hmmm..very well said. I dont know where you found this lsg or how fast. I just left the other post and thought it way old...but replyed anyways. I also believe that we are going AGAINST what the constitution stands for by disallowing freedom of choice. and the comments of "oh, I have nothing against gays, i even have one as my friend...seems to be an echo of the past when blacks were fighting for their freedoms and a white man who justify whatever ignorant action or reaction with that kind of statement  
Date: 7/13/2003 7:26:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    Excuse me, but the first post concerning this issue of allowing same sex marriages was ALL about removing God from our government and how powerful that role was.....No Non-Christian brought that issue into it, the author herself started it out as a Christian debate. This debate did not start out as a Christian debate either and was made to be a Christian debate with the very first comment made besides the author. " For those that follow God's laws, his laws supercede the constitutions with regard to this issue." This post was very clear...is it a violation of a person's right not to allow them to marry based on gender...according to our laws the answer to that is CLEARLY yes. Sorry but, it looks to me that the Christians turned this into a "Christian thing".  
Date: 7/13/2003 7:35:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    MOre of the same from you guys. AZ, when I made my initial comment it was to explain why I feel that way I do, not to bring up a Christian stance. There is one thing that all of your neglect to realize.... When I said I have gay friends, I was being very vague. Let us just say that the "gay friends" I was referring to are in my immediate family. This person has chosen to deny their sexual tendencies and is currently very happily married with children. Actually, they've been married for more than 25 years. This person did this because of their belief in God and they have no regrets. DON'T ASSUME to know what people are referring to when they say the know someone that is gay.  
Date: 7/13/2003 7:43:00 PM  From Authorid: 3321    Marriage is an institution of its own.  
Date: 7/13/2003 8:24:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    You Choose, if they have been happily married for 25 years, then by definition, they are not gay. understand something, the Constitution and laws of our government are not about your religion, or anyone else's religion. They are for all people. I have the utmost respect for your religous beleifs, but they are not mine, and they are not those of many people in this country, and they are not the beleifs of justice in our laws. In fact, the First Ammendment of the Constitution guarantees us that they will not be the beleifs of our laws. You did throw God's law into this deabate with the very first response. Now you are getting mad because other's are debating you on it. You opened the dance. If you can't do the dance, then don't start the dance.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:21:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    You Choose you fail to see that this is NOT about morality and whether being gay is right or wrong. The ISSUE here is whether or not it is a violation of the Constitution of the United States to prohibit homosexuals from marrying within their gender. That answer is 100% YES, it is most definately a violation of their rights. When you throw God into the issue you are turning this into whether or not their lifestyle is morally correct. REGARDLESS of whether me, you, the pope, God, satan, the toothfairy or the Easter Bunny think it is right or wrong it does not negate to the fact that it is a violation of cival rights. Now knowing how that is to be taken and is really quite simple to understand, then understand that if you keep bringing the issue of God and morality into the equation that you will be debated on your insistance to try and push the two together like they are one. I have not seen where someone has even come close to saying that you are not entitled to think the way you do, state what you feel, or persecuting for being a Christian. It is the sole fact that you are trying to turn this into an issue of morality when it has nothing to do with it and you are using your belief in your Christianity to do that. For those of us to repeatedly tell you that they have no bearing on each other is not attacking you for being a Christian by any means.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:28:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    AZ.... Sorry dear but I don't agree with you. I don't recall ever using the word moral here. I only mentioned God's Laws at the beginning and that was to say that FOR ME.... God's laws supercede mans. I guess YOU still don't get it. Tell me where I talked about my belief of gay as immoral. Please by all means do.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:31:00 PM  From Authorid: 3321    Separation of church and state. Religion of any type should not dictate laws.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:32:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Another thing... Why am I being continually addressed about my opinion? I'm not questioning why you guys feel it's okay? Just leave it alone already. YOU WILL never change my view on this, learn to respect a person's beliefs.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:39:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    If you READ MY first statement AGAIN... you'll see that I've agreed that it's probably not against the Constitution. That doesn't mean I agree that it should be instituted but that probably eventually will, regardless of my pleasure or displeasure (and that is where the reference to God's Laws came in). I guess my comment was too hard for some to comprehend.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    Where the rest of your comment came from I have no clue. I didn't assume or even comment about anything you said pertaining to gay people you know or don't know. But since you brought it up..LOL..There are many "former", although I believe that there is no such thing as a former homosexual or lesbian, that have married, had children and denied their sexual PREFERENCE because someone came along and made them feel nasty and dirty for what they were doing and it surely wasn't anyone who loved them for exactly who and what they are, that turned around after 25 years and said you know what, I am going to be who I am. Then what do you have? A bunch of messed up kids which never should have been an issue if everyone else would stop thinking they know what is best for others. Let me just say this and consider it speaking my peace. There is no way that I am ever going to change the way that you believe and I have not even attempted do that. There is nothing that you are going to do to change the way that I believe and I haven't taken anything that you have said to me as an attempt to do so. However the difference is, my cause here does impose on you. Making same sex marriages legal does not mean that you, someone who doesn't believe in it, by law, have to turn around tomorrow and find a woman to marry. It says those that want to, can. By saying that is shouldn't be legal because it is immoral, you are saying that they HAVE to find a person of the opposite sex to marry. You have no right to impose that on someone else simply because you don't like it.  
Date: 7/13/2003 9:59:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    You Choose-Enough already with the "I am being attacked stuff". Your "Gay" relative, if they are in a heterosexual relationship for 25 years, indicates they are 1) not really Gay or 2) living a lie. THAT would be more of an insult to their Creator-in my opinion.  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:00:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    thank you Az.....you made my point for me  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:02:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    You Choose, did you say that you found it immoral anywhere...NO, you haven't.....It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the only reason you feel it should it not become law is because it is against God's law..and WHAT shall I ask does God think about it? Just gonna take a wild guess here...ummm that it's an immoral sinful act for a man to lie down with another man? So in other words that is exactly what I can equate and would be willing to bet that everyone else here has equated that the only reason you don't think that it should be legal is because God doesn't agree with the whole homosexuality thing and finds it morally and ethically wrong, since you agree with him, wouldn't that mean you do to?  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:08:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    You guys use that "pack of wolves syndrome" very well. Don't tell me anything about what I think, know or how my gay relative isn't gay. You guys are vERY out of touch with respect for others opinions. It's amazing how when someone speaks their opinion and society doesn't agree they can't wait to beat them into agreeing with them. You'll never change my OPINION, so don't try. I'm done on this post. Have a great life.  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:10:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    Another thing AZ....learn to ACCEPT others for what they are is what you preach but YOU don't ACCEPT them for their opinions.  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:27:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    THAT was the BEST comment I have seen yet to show EXACTLY what I am talking about..."You guys are vERY out of touch with respect for others opinions. It's amazing how when someone speaks their opinion and society doesn't agree they can't wait to beat them into agreeing with them." Isn't this the EXACT same standpoint that you are coming from with your opinion of WHY same sex marriages should not be legal? Now considering that Christianity is makes up the majority in this country wouldn't it be fair to say that the entire situation in regards to homosexuality is the way that it is because Christians beat their opinion down on your door.....LITERALLY. As for me respecting others opinions, I have not been as nearly nasty as you have been in stating yours. I have not said once that you are entitled to your belief, or you opinion or have tried to change you in anyway. The only thing that I have TRIED to make you see is that God's Law and Man's Law have two seperate pairs of eyes here. NOTHING more, nothing less. Before we talk about who accepts who and who doesn't, I am not the one all up in a debate telling other people that they have no right to be happy and don't have the same rights under the law that I do, simply because I don't believe what they do is right. Last but not least your cry of unfairness and the pack of wolves syndrome is laughable at best. If I compliment someone with the same standpoint or they compliment me we are hunting you in a pack, yet Firstborn and Deb can give you a nice pat on the back because they agree with you and THAT's okay. I think it's better than you stop while you are behind You Choose, you are tripping over your own actions now.  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:28:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    That should have said Firstborn and Drk..LOL  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:29:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    LSG... I never said I was being "attacked" I said I was being continually questioned on my personal opinion. Why do you try to always turn things around?  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:55:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    You Choose, I probably know more about gays and lesbians than many of the people here. I have worked with them on many projects over the past years, and continue to do so. In fact, I am one of the founding members of one of the largest LGBT groups in the state. A person who has had gay tendencies, but has led a normal heterosexual life, is not gay, unless like LSG said, they are hiding the truth. They could very well be bisexual though. Many bisexuals do lead normal heterosexual lives. No one is attacking you, but when you keep posting post after post, and addressing comments others have made, then exepct people to comment directly back to you. When people start debating the issue of gays and lesbians, it can get very personal and pointed very fast. You may have a relative that may or may not be gay. I have relatives, as well as many friends who are gay. In fact, I have more gay and lesbian friends than I do straight freinds. When you are transgendered it tends to be that way. Now, getting back to the original topic, according to the Constitution, gays should be allowed every right to marriage or civil union. To do so, violates their very own Constitutional rights.  
Date: 7/13/2003 10:58:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    And to answer your last question; "don't you guys have anything else going on in your lives that you need to direct your attentions to?" Yes I do, educating people to the truth concerning all members of the LGBT community. It is a job I not only do on the net, but in real life, and one I am happy to say that I am very good at.  
Date: 7/13/2003 11:08:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    WS: The old reverse psychology stuff again that seems to be a favorite around here. Ummm... as for me addressings other's comments, that's usually what a person does when they see their name in front of something or a comment directed at them. I have tried many times here to end this rediculous cycle. As for your info on gay and lesbian relationships you may think you know about how they ALL live but you don't. By doing so your placing them all in the same category and not saying they have individual options, desires and motivations. I too am very informed on their lifestyles and my relative has told me many things about their past. MY UNCLE is the person I have been referring to and there is also a very good reason he confided in me. He didn't say he was bi-sexual. He was in a gay-committed relationship for many years prior to marriage and before becoming a Christian. He said that God changed him. I believe him and know that he has delt with a lot because of what he had gone through. He is a wonderful person, husband and father. There are things in this world beyond everyone's understanding... believe it or not.  
Date: 7/13/2003 11:16:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    If you are referring to my comment about 25 years of marriage and ending up where you are happy in the end, that was not a comment directed at your Uncle, it was my response to you saying that you know someone who denied their sexual tendencies and have been happily married with children for 25 years. I was only expressing what happens on the opposite side of that coin also. It wasn't to suggest or imply that your Uncle wasn't happy with his choice.  
Date: 7/13/2003 11:27:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    AZ....The person married for 25 years is my uncle. He is very happy as is my Aunt. She knows about his past and they have delt with it and continue to do so. My cousins are very balanced, all are attending major universities. They attend their church and their pastor knows about their situation also. They couldn't be more normal.  
Date: 7/13/2003 11:31:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    You Choose and that explanation of their life came from where? I didn't have anything to go on for a basis of them being normal or abnormal and didn't even question whether they are or aren't. I also have a close relative that is Gay and continues to be Gay and lead her life in the Gay community. Her lifestyle choice is totally and 100% acceptable within our family and she brings her girlfriend to Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter dinner. To each their own.  
Date: 7/13/2003 11:40:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    "To each their own" That's exactly what I've been saying in different words here the entire time.  
Date: 7/14/2003 1:01:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    You Choose, I am sorry but I beg to differ that your stance here the whole time has been "to each thier own" That may have been your stance in regards to your repeat statements of "I am entitles to my beliefs and opinions and you are entitled to yours.", but it has not been your stance on the issue at hand that we have been debating about. If it were, "to each their own" you would have absolutely no objections to making same sex marriages equal in the eyes of the law.  
Date: 7/14/2003 1:02:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    legal, not equal...it's 4am and I am going to bed...LOL  
Date: 7/14/2003 1:17:00 AM  From Authorid: 34487    Wrong AZ... Gay people can do what they please in my opinion and I can also not condone same-sex marriages. These two issues are possible for people that understand reality. I've said it before.... I won't join a rally against them marrying, I won't instigate a vote against it, and at the same time I won't rally for gay marriages. To each their own. Their doing their thing and I'm withholding my religious belief. Get it yet?  
Date: 7/14/2003 2:11:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    Actually You Choose, you haven't even come close to saying ANY of what you just said in that last comment other than you don't condone same sex marriages. You have negated to the fact that you don't condone it and because it violates God's law it should not be legal because God's law supercedes Man's law. Obviously I am not the only one who saw this, because several other people have been telling you the same thing I have been saying.  
Date: 7/14/2003 4:20:00 AM  ( Lin-Admin )   I would like to DIRECT your attention to this Post "http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm82839.html"...This post has begun to fill with Insults and Inuendo directed at some participants of the post...Address the Topic do not Battle one another...In other words My Friends "Have a Clean Debate Or Have A Clean Exit"...You do the Author a Grave diservice when you render the Topic "Personal" and proceed to attack one another in ways unrelated to said Post...Keep it above board...Give the Author and the Topic the Respect it Deserves...Commennts that continue to Bash or Insult will be deleted...I Remain In Spirit,
Date: 7/14/2003 4:21:00 AM  From Authorid: 62187    YOU CHOOSE, I must apologize to you. I do take your statements personally. Your attitude is reprehensible. To say that you have nothing against gays because you do not rally against them is utterly absurd. I am reminded of Germany during the Holocaust. You aren't against Jews. Some of your friends are Jewish. You do not protest against Jews. You look the other way when they are beaten. You walk around the block to avoid their Ghetto. You don't ask questions when they aren't around anymore. You even hold your nose when the wind blows the smell of crematories your way. How can you be responsible? You had no idea this was happening. That is as laughable now as it was then. Indifference, and inaction, equate to inhumanity. You cannot see it differently. Because you equate being gay to being immoral, you feel it is correct to deny us the basic freedoms and protection guaranteed to all citizens by our constitution. You are therefore saying that we are not citizens. I cannot tolerate that. But what do you care you have nothing against gays, right? <<<<Baby Girl Sandi>>>>
Date: 7/14/2003 10:35:00 AM  From Authorid: 51635    For ANYONE who thinks the bible has anything to do with marrage being leagal or not, we let athiests (sp) get married... No one ever said that you have to believe in God or practice any form of religion to go to a court house and say "I do" and have the government recognize it....thats all we want to be able to do, have the SAME rights as any other married couple...  
Date: 7/14/2003 11:55:00 AM  From Authorid: 22080    what about the fact that marriage was around long before the bible  
Date: 7/14/2003 2:00:00 PM  From Authorid: 22080    anyone who has gay friends or family and claims ot love them or be good friends with them is a hypocrite when they say they wont allow them to marry, why would you not want your family to be happy? and why dont you like your friends being happy? not to mention the simple fact christianity did not start marriage, it was there before, so why dont you just have it so they can get married but not in your church, i think that would work for us all  
Date: 7/14/2003 3:42:00 PM  From Authorid: 3321    PERSONAL ATTACKS DO NOT CONSTITUTE A DEBATE!!!!  
Date: 7/14/2003 4:19:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    Thank You Perse, I apologize once again.  
Date: 7/14/2003 4:41:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    There may be people out there that have nothing but gay and lesbian friends. There is one simple fact, unless a person is themselves gay, lesbian, or transgendered, they do not know, nor will they ever know what it is that we go through. We can tell them, but until they have experienced it themselves first hand, they still will not fully understand it. None of us in the LGBT choose to be the way we are. The fact that we are this way has no religous significance. It is our lives, plain and simple. Our lives are not something for someone else to play with because they may beleive something different. You do not play with people's lives. Some day the shoe may be on the other foot, and it may be those who do not agree with us that are being discriminated against, threatened, and even killed. I can assure you, that if that day comes, the members of the LGBT community will be the first to speak out and do something about it. When you have been down in the mud, you know how it feels, and you do your best to make sure others do not have to go through the same things you did.  
Date: 7/14/2003 5:46:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    ~OMG~! What a beautiful tag-Warrior Spirit. I agree, you, in your capacity truly see the best & the worst of human behavior. My point in posting this was simple: Same-Sex marriage is NOT against the constitution. AND, if the Federal Government continues to deny same-sex marriage, they are denying personal freedom(s). The Government needs to stay OUT of people's personal lives in order to avoid breaking the Constitutional Laws that provide for privacy & the pursuit of happiness.  
Date: 7/14/2003 6:20:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    You Choose, LSG cannot delete your comments since this is a debate.  
Date: 7/14/2003 6:38:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    You Choose, authors cannot delete comments made in debates. Only admins can do that. I heard about your comments to Baby Girl Sandi, and from my understanding, it was far from polite. If you knew her the way I do, and I do know her personally, you would never make any comment against her. You will never meet a sweeter, nicer person that Sandi.  
Date: 7/14/2003 6:51:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    Sorry You Choose-I did not Delete them. Nor did I request an Admin delete them. Frankly-I would have left them & let USM'ers decide for themselves what is "rude". Besides, I am a little too old for silly games. I am one of those people who is totally comfortable with who & what I am. *smiles* You are firey about your faith. That is your way....BUT..not everything is a "conspiracy", or an "attack". I deleted comments in discussion that detracted from the discussion posted. You Choose, you have been doing a lot of finger-pointing & accusing. I think you need to see...this is a debate. A discussion. This is not personal. It never was.  
Date: 7/14/2003 7:03:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    You know LSG, I was always told that when a person points a finger at someone else, they should remember that there are four fingers pointing back at them. A little something to be remembered.  
Date: 7/14/2003 7:07:00 PM  From Authorid: 22080    i never intended mine to sound like personal attacks, i was pointing out faults in their argument, how it makes them look hypocritical, this is a debate, leave your ego at the door, sorry to get off topic i had to say that tho  
Date: 7/14/2003 7:17:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 15070    I see that....thanks WS/Two-Spirits. JestR, you are always welcome to comment & observe....yes, it is a control issue.  
Date: 7/15/2003 6:20:00 AM  From Authorid: 14412    You know, I have always like seeing these debates on homosexual this and that...lol. People you know there is something everyone is missing.. We are here, we do love, we do live with our partners(when we find one), we blled like everyone else, and most of all we feel the same emotions. I find it hilarious how many people say, "I have friends that are gay", you know what that line tells me you are using a minority to back you in your points you give, BUT yet everything said is far from what someone would actually say. People tell ya what, GET OVER IT ALREADY, society itself has already gotten some of what it wants. There are people living in marriages, because that is what is accepted and it ends up they live a lie all thier lives. I swear if I had a penny for every time i heard, "I havfe a friend who is gay", "hate the sinner not the sin" or even, " well ya know if you were normal", I would be the richest man on earth. *rolls eyes* some day maybe people will understand that being human is being human, but yet people are so concerned with putting others down for this or that, that they forget what being human is. We are all different but yet we are all made the same.  
Date: 7/15/2003 6:21:00 AM  ( Admin-US )   And just a reminder lets stay on the topic of the post please:)
Date: 7/15/2003 7:47:00 AM  From Authorid: 22080    pre, i think you have taken the floor and the debate*bows and steps back*  
Date: 7/15/2003 10:32:00 AM  From Authorid: 3321    For the record, for EVERYONE in this debate, I enjoy a good fiery debate very much, but when you stray from the topic, start insulting each other, and then shift the topic away from the initial debate, its not debating anymore. If you want to see that crap, watch a Senate filibuster or something, but I'd rather keep my category clean.  
Date: 7/16/2003 10:35:00 AM  From Authorid: 51635    Way to type Predictor! I couldn't have said better my self...