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Date: 12/8/2003 1:38:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
i actually only have a vague notion of the origins of christmas and our family does not really celebrate it as a religious holiday, but rather a family holiday. as for the contents of the article, i make no affiliation between santa and satan, confifers and lucifer, nor do i know anyone personally that has interpreted scripture or christmas in this manner. the closest think would be my father in law who doesn't believe in celebrating christmas because he doesn't see it as scripturally accurate or condoned.  |
Date: 12/8/2003 1:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 62408
Being raised Roman Catholic, I often questioned some of this, as I believe the observance of the "Immaculate Conception" occurs sometime this week, at the moment, my memory fails me as to whether the date is Dec. 8th or Dec. 15th. Many argue this would make it impossible for Jesus to have been born on Dec. 25. HOWEVER, what few realize is that the Immaculate Conception is in reference to MARY's conception, and not that of Jesus'. In the Catholic faith, we learn that she was born without 'original sin', unlike the rest of us, making her not only a virgin, but capable of bearing the Christ-child...planned from the time of her birth by God. As for the feast of St. Nicholas, that takes place on Dec. 6, and the only real custom that was officially adopted from that was that of leaving out stockings, as St. Nicholas lived ( I believe in Holland) and children would leave their shoes outside their bedroom doors at night before going to sleep, and in the morning, they would be filled with treats or small toys. I realize that this is just an excerpt, and not the person who posted this general opinion, but I thought I would clarify a few things with what I was taught. As far as gift giving, that came along when the Magi brought the baby Jesus gifts to honor him. Then there is the story of the Jesse tree...as for the Christmas tree, I'm not sure where that falls into place, but I'm sure there's a story for that, too. As for the anagrams, I'm sure you could find those anywhere. But St. Nicholas DID exist...Santa Claus is merely our way of carrying on the tradition. --Christine  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 1:51:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
thank you very much christine. i have heard story of st. nicholas, have seen some of the outline of christmas being drawn from pagan origins, the dutch children and shoes, but i have no clue on the jesse tree. i wasn't raised with specific beliefs nor was a raised with christmas being celebrated as the birth of jesus. any thing i do know in elation to differents beliefs is only bits and pieces i've picked up from people i know. |
Date: 12/8/2003 2:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 62222
Many traditions embraced by "Christmas" are originally celebrated under Yule. Most notably, the wreath, symbolizing death and rebirth, and the tree itself, is a Yule tradition. Burning the Yule log, mistletoe..all of it's pagan. However, I am like you Doheney, I celebrate it as a "family holiday", well okay..it's more of an obligation to me, but still. I don't sit around worrying if my mother is violating her fundamental stance of religious non-involvement by putting up her tree. I think she likes decorating the tree and making me a new wreath every year. I have some vague memory of reading that the incorporation of Yule was to help pagan converts adjust to christianity. I don't make any association between Satan and Santa..although, I have been told that when I was younger I questioned Santa's credibility by politely inquiring whether or not he was a pervert, considering my mom told me to never sit on a stranger's lap. Other than that...I'd say someone who sits around and thinks of this stuff needs to lighten up on the bottle and hit the meds harder. How can you condem a holiday, no matter what it's origin, that is all about family and love and fuzzies and all the *ahem* stuff I am not into. *Cough cough* I feel my credibility slipping away now......<RegretfulHalo>  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 2:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 62222
that word is "condemn" not condem....<RH> |
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Date: 12/8/2003 2:43:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
lmao! i can just picture you as a little girl asking if santa is a pervert. lol! |
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Date: 12/8/2003 2:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 62222
Well see, they had just done the "stranger-danger" thing at my school and they said if you aren't sure...ask your parents...well mom was right there....so before I got on his lap I looked back to my mom and asked "Is this okay? he isn't some kind of prevert is he?" yeah, I said "prevert" instead of pervert...but everyone got the gist....<RH> |
Date: 12/8/2003 2:49:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
well, i do know a few that totally reject. my father in law to be precise. he attends the church of christ and within the church generally, anything not based upon scripture or not mentioned in scripture, is not to be done. hence the lack of musical instruments during the worship sevice. the belief within the system he subscribes to doesn't see mention of instruments during worship so singing is acapella only. there is no mention of the date of jesus's birth, so, no christmas. to him it would be wrong for him to do it. on the other hand, he is incredibly cheap and that also has alot to do with it. lmao! thanks for your imput rh!  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 2:50:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
rotflmao! good for you though! it is nothing but good for kids to not be afraid to ask or tell. |
Date: 12/8/2003 3:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 10030
Where are the sources?  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 3:05:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
this is the source. the writer of this article used scripture to back his position. he did not list any sources for the pagan origins. perhaps someone with pagan beliefs will enlighten us as to the possible correlation between yule and christmas with sources. |
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Date: 12/8/2003 3:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
there is probably only scriptural sources as the writer is obvious making his statement based on his scriptural interpretations. |
Date: 12/8/2003 3:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 10030
If there is nothing to back up the pagan beliefs he's used, then this cannot be taken as any sort of fact. Frankly, I find it a load of bull. =) In fact, it seems this was most likely written as a joke.  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 3:13:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
actually, it wasn't a joke, but i do mean it as a real debate. there is plenty to contest here and you are welcome to state your own sources that might debunk this paticular scriptual basis. being non pagan myself, i can't very well validate the pagan origins of christmas. from my own personal beliefs though, i can and will when i have more than five minutes to be here, probably tonight. |
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Date: 12/8/2003 3:21:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
i should have said, i mean for people to debate it, but it is in good holiday fun. i want to know where peole think christmas's originated from, whether those that follow scriptues find this accurate, etc. the debate will follow, it always does when religion is involved. |
Date: 12/8/2003 3:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 58268
hmmmmmm......verrrry ineresting, makes me think about things, lol, im gonna tell all my christian friends this and see how mad they get at me   |
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Date: 12/8/2003 3:33:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
probably really mad some of them zeta lol |
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Date: 12/8/2003 3:33:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
the history channel's origins of christmas (too long to post) http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real.html |
Date: 12/8/2003 4:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
It is known that religous holidays often have their birth in pagan beliefs. That was one way the early church could bring people into the fold. As for the source of the article, I believe it is Seventh Day Adventist. Recently, there have been a rash of billboards everywhere I travel condemning the belief that Sunday is the Sabbath, and I believe the Adventists are behind that. There is no reference to exactly when Christ was born. Given all that, I feel one has to look at the thought and meaning that has been put with Christmas before being judgemental. As for Santa Claus, I have never thought of St. Nick as being evil, but as the persona of giving unto others.  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 4:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 12133
OK, Galations 1:6-9, 2:4 Has NOTHING about the Sun, or the Babylonian Mystery religion. Simon Pater supposedly repented. He DID ask Peter and John to pray for him. Matthew 6:5-6 does NOT say not to go to church, it says " Do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on street corners to be seen by men." Then it goes on to say to pray in private, and God will reward you. Verse ^; Literal translation...except that Revelations was written by the Apostle John, so when it says " But this thou hast (in thy favour), that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes which I (Christ) ALSO HATE" It is not Christ's words, but John's. And as far as Santa wearing red, which is also Satan's color: Santa in the red suit is mainly a product of Coca Cola advertising. Generally before that, "Santa or St. Nick wore whatever color whoever drew him chose. And the "three Kings" they were not kings, they were listed as magi, and also as shepards. AS far as giving gifts to children..maybe it is menat in the spirit that the magi, or shepards gave gifts to Jesus.Isiah 3:12? Finish it; "Youths oppress my people. Women rule over them. Which is in judgement on Jerusalem, and Judah. "Christmas, nor pagan rituals are mentioned. I havn't seen a picture of Nimrod, so I can't comment on that. And linking the word "Conifer" to Lucifer, is a stretch of ANYONE'S imagination. "Con" means against and "fer" can be taken from almost anything. I'e: "Heifer" so, "Conifer" in actuality, mean "against cows".  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 4:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 12133
I was raised in the Church of Christ. My grandfather was a preacher in it. Not ALL Church of Christ churches not celebrate Christmas. Every one I have ever been to did. BUT, I have heard of it from people who were also Church of Christ. I dunno. |
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Date: 12/8/2003 4:26:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
i never thought of st. nick as evil either two spirit. i do believe this was the first time i've ever encountered this idea and it threw me for a loop lol. is seven day adventist's belief that the sabbath is on saturday instead of sunday? because i'm not sure. our neighbors celebrate the sabbath on saturdays, my husband's family on sundays. |
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Date: 12/8/2003 4:31:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
let me put it this way crash, they didn't celebrate it within the church, the father in law doesn't celebrate it at all, and the preacher does lol. |
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Date: 12/8/2003 4:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
as a matter of fact, the preacher got married on christmas eve |
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Date: 12/8/2003 4:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 12133
Well, the other person told me I must have had my churches confused. I said "After 32 years of KNOWING where he preached, I don't think I do..." |
Date: 12/8/2003 4:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 44321
I guess when you can fly all over the world in one night fit in any chimneyy or heating grate and can eat all the cookies and junk you want and still not have to use the bathroom then darnit you have to be EVIL Santa is satan the elves are his minions lol I could not help myself had to make a joke even if it is corny as heck Growin up we did not have a chimney,we had heating vents,I said to my grandmom,"how can he fit through that",she told me he magically broke up into pieces and once through he popped back together and would then leave my presents ,all I could say to her was "WOW,maybe we should not leave out so many cookies,he might not get back out" LOL  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 4:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 53284
I thought this was just silly. The spirit of Christmas is ofter represented by Santa. Giving to the less fortunate is something that I associate with Christmas and Santa. If this is Satans work, he really missed the boat. It did make me laugh though. Have a great Christmas and I hope Santa brings you something special. Bob  |
Date: 12/8/2003 4:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 11341
It sounds to me that it was written by a Jehovas Witness. I had a friend who for 2 years decided they were Jehovas Witness becuase she didnt want to buy her kids presents (I kid you not) after the 2 years the celebrated Christmas again. While she was a Witness she had people comming over and I asked why they didnt celebrate and the answers I was given are many that were written here. It never got as far as the confifer thing though, geez gimme a break. In our house it is a family day, I let my kids know what others believe the day is about. I dont limit it to Christianity, but I also wont tell them garbage like this.  |
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Date: 12/8/2003 5:01:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
no i wouldn't say you had your churches confused, they are all different. like our preacher that celebrated christmas and our father in law that doesn't. even though the preacher celebrates though, it wasn't at church though. the churches of christ are autonamous though and that may well have something to do with it as well. |
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Date: 12/8/2003 5:02:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
cute story medusa lol |
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Date: 12/8/2003 5:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
me too wildbob.i hope you have a great christmas and santa brings you something special too |
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Date: 12/8/2003 5:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 11341
After thought, I was in no way calling Jehovas Witnesses garbage but my personal opinion is that this article is just that, gabage. |
Date: 12/8/2003 7:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I think this is garbage. It mis-represents Paganism, it mis-represents ancient religions, and it seems designed to "control" people's behavior by scaring them with the whole Satan/Hell thing. The Yule season & Christmas are indeed of "Pagan" (non-Christian, non-Jewish, non-Muslim) origins. That does not make them "bad", nor does it imply that anything beyond this narrow view of the holiday is "Satanic". I don't think these wild religious claims hold any water with people who are intelligent enough to see beyond the hype. That is my opinion.  |
Date: 12/9/2003 9:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
No offence, but Christianity has so many sects and they all believe different things from their own translations of the scriptures. Who's right? None of them in my view! Christmas can be the most wonderful family celebration, but it can also be an absolute hell for a lot of people too. It can be very stressful. People getting into debt in order to buy what their kids want... it's all over by noon and they break some of the precious toys fighting over them. Suicide go up and many lonely people just want to hide away. To some it means nothing, to others it's the highlight of the year. We will all experience all kinds of christmases. There is no evidence in the Bible or otherwise that Christmas is a religious time, but there is evidence of pagan origins in Europe where most Americans came from. Then it was a simple kind of thanksgiving celebration. Now it's just a marketing exercise.  |
Date: 12/9/2003 10:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 36967
I don't celebrate Christmas( not in the sense you are thinking of) , I just don't go into the secular part of it. The Bible mentions nothing about remembering his birth. Remember his Death, Burial and Resurection. We should do that Everyday.  |
Date: 12/9/2003 2:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Doheney, LOL, I'm with dmk and lsg, I dont know who wrote this garbage but that is just what it is, as not only does it not represent Christianity, but not the pagan beliefs either. I"M with who ever said it must have been written by a JW, as they get everything messed up. Koolade is right, Christmas when I was little was a time of thanksgiving, magical pleasure for children but its gone to commercialized that its not even any fun anymore unless you are a KID. It doesnt matter if this is the true birth of Christ or it isnt, but those of us that are christian CHOOSE to say JESUS is the reason for the season. As far as were concerned Jesus is the reason for all things.  |
Date: 12/9/2003 8:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 51070
The only thing I find evil about Christmas is mass-consumerism. These days, it is no longer about the spirit of the holiday, but of spending money and getting gifts. I love the holiday and getting presents, eating fairy food and drinking egg nog, but it's just consumerism in reality. I never knew some of the things you pointed out, though. Interesting post. I don't think Christmas is satan-evil, however.  |
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Date: 12/9/2003 9:43:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
just for the record, as stated above, i don't believe any of what is posted in this article in relation to santa claus and evil. |
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Date: 12/10/2003 6:00:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
THE EVOLUTION OF SANTA CLAUSE courtesy of the history channel |
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Date: 12/10/2003 6:01:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
The legend of Santa Claus can be traced back hundreds of years to a monk named St. Nicholas. It is believed that Nicholas was born sometime around 280 A.D. in Patara, near Myra in modern-day Turkey. Much admired for his piety and kindness, St. Nicholas became the subject of many legends. It is said that he gave away all of his inherited wealth and traveled the countryside helping the poor and sick. Over the course of many years, Nicholas's popularity spread and he became known as the protector of children and sailors. His feast day is celebrated on the anniversary of his death, December 6. This was traditionally considered a lucky day to make large purchases or to get married. By the Renaissance, St. Nicholas was the most popular saint in Europe. Even after the Protestant Reformation, when the veneration of saints began to be discouraged, St. Nicholas maintained a positive reputation, especially in Holland. |
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Date: 12/10/2003 6:03:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
St. Nicholas made his first inroads into American popular culture towards the end of the 18th century. In December 1773, and again in 1774, a New York newspaper reported that groups of Dutch families had gathered to honor the anniversary of his death. The name Santa Claus evolved from Nick's Dutch nickname, Sinter Klaas, a shortened form of Sint Nikolaas (Dutch for Saint Nicholas). 1804, John Pintard, a member of the New York Historical Society, distributed woodcuts of St. Nicholas at the society's annual meeting. The background of the engraving contains now-familiar Santa images including stockings filled with toys and fruit hung over a fireplace. In 1809, Washington Irving helped to popularize the Sinter Klaas stories when he referred to St. Nicholas as the patron saint of New York in his book, The History of New York. As his prominence grew, Sinter Klaas was described as everything from a "rascal" with a blue three-cornered hat, red waistcoat, and yellow stockings to a man wearing a broad-brimmed hat and a "huge pair of Flemish trunk hose." |
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Date: 12/10/2003 6:04:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
In 1822, Clement Clarke Moore, an Episcopal minister, wrote a long Christmas poem for his three daughters entitled, "An Account of a Visit from St. Nicholas." Moore's poem, which he was initially hesitant to publish due to the frivolous nature of its subject, is largely responsible for our modern image of Santa Claus as a "right jolly old elf" with a portly figure and the supernatural ability to ascend a chimney with a mere nod of his head! Although some of Moore's imagery was probably borrowed from other sources, his poem helped to popularize the now-familiar idea of a Santa Claus who flew from house to house on Christmas Eve—in "a miniature sleigh" led by eight flying reindeer, whom he also named—leaving presents for deserving children. "An Account of a Visit from St. Nicholas," created a new and immediately popular American icon. In 1881, political cartoonist Thomas Nast drew on Moore's poem to create the first likeness that matches our modern image of Santa Claus. His cartoon, which appeared in Harper's Weekly, depicted Santa as a rotund, cheerful man with a full, white beard, holding a sack laden with toys for lucky children. It is Nast who gave Santa his bright red suit trimmed with white fur, North Pole workshop, elves, and his wife, Mrs. Claus. |
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Date: 12/10/2003 6:05:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
Gift-giving, mainly centered around children, has been an important part of the Christmas celebration since the holiday's rejuvenation in the early 19th century. Stores began to advertise Christmas shopping in 1820, and by the 1840s, newspapers were creating separate sections for holiday advertisements, which often featured images of the newly-popular Santa Claus. In 1841, thousands of children visited a Philadelphia shop to see a life-size Santa Claus model. It was only a matter of time before stores began to attract children, and their parents, with the lure of a peek at a "live" Santa Claus. In the early 1890s, the Salvation Army needed money to pay for the free Christmas meals they provided to needy families. They began dressing up unemployed men in Santa Claus suits and sending them into the streets of New York to solicit donations. Those familiar Salvation Army Santas have been ringing bells on the street corners of American cities ever since. |
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Date: 12/10/2003 6:06:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
18th-century America's Santa Claus was not the only St. Nicholas-inspired gift-giver to make an appearance at Christmastime. Similar figures were popular all over the world. Christkind or Kris Kringle was believed to deliver presents to well-behaved Swiss and German children. Meaning "Christ child," Christkind is an angel-like figure often accompanied by St. Nicholas on his holiday missions. In Scandinavia, a jolly elf named Jultomten was thought to deliver gifts in a sleigh drawn by goats. English legend explains that Father Christmas visits each home on Christmas Eve to fill children's stockings with holiday treats. Pere Noel is responsible for filling the shoes of French children. In Russia, it is believed that an elderly woman named Babouschka purposely gave the wise men wrong directions to Bethlehem so that they couldn't find Jesus. Later, she felt remorseful, but could not find the men to undo the damage. To this day, on January 5, Babouschka visits Russian children leaving gifts at their bedsides in the hope that one of them is the baby Jesus and she will be forgiven. In Italy, a similar story exists about a woman called La Befana, a kindly witch who rides a broomstick down the chimneys of Italian homes to deliver toys into the stockings of lucky children. |
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Date: 12/10/2003 6:06:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
Rudolph, "the most famous reindeer of all," was born over a hundred years after his eight flying counterparts. The red-nosed wonder was the creation of Robert L. May, a copywriter at the Montgomery Ward department store. In 1939, May wrote a Christmas-themed story-poem to help bring holiday traffic into his store. Using a similar rhyme pattern to Moore's "'Twas the Night Before Christmas," May told the story of Rudolph, a young reindeer who was teased by the other deer because of his large, glowing, red nose. But, When Christmas Eve turned foggy and Santa worried that he wouldn't be able to deliver gifts that night, the former outcast saved Christmas by leading the sleigh by the light of his red nose. Rudolph's message—that given the opportunity, a liability can be turned into an asset—proved popular. Montgomery Ward sold almost two and a half million copies of the story in 1939. When it was reissued in 1946, the book sold over three and half million copies. Several years later, one of May's friends, Johnny Marks, wrote a short song based on Rudolph's story (1949). It was recorded by Gene Autry and sold over two million copies. Since then, the story has been translated into 25 languages and been made into a television movie, narrated by Burl Ives, which has charmed audiences every year since 1964. |
Date: 12/10/2003 6:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 54111
I have to agree with FB because I don't think of any pagan or Santa Claus. Hey I wish there a Santa Claus sometimes,so I wouldn't have to spend so much money. LOL  |
Date: 12/10/2003 1:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 24319
You mean... Santa's not real? Oh my. Oh my God.  |
Date: 12/11/2003 7:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 160
1 John 2:17 "Do not be loving the world ore the things in the world for the love of the Father is not in you." Would this be one of those things that make that point? As far as it goes and maybe I missed it but the facts are that parents lie to their children when they tell them Santa Claus brings them presents. Wonder what else parents are lieing to their children about? True JW do not celebrate the holidays (as the rest of the world does) God is exposing all things as the end draws near, There should be no doubt so when the time comes they cannot say "We didn't know" Just as God has exposed the pedofiles in the churches, the entertainment world, sports and political worlds. The scriptures say to quit touching these things if you do not want to suffer what is going to happen to them when the end comes. By the way this is an excellent post, one of the best that I have ever read. I would like to know where it came from if you don't mind. And no it was not written by a JW.  |
Date: 12/12/2003 11:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 62060
On the TV a while ago it claimed Santa Claus originated from somewhere in europe who went around with a man named 'black jack' (or something like that). Santa Claus gave out presents to the good children, black jack whipped the bad children. Personally, i think the whole thing is read into far too much. Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ, timed to co-encide with a pagan festival since no-one knew the actual date.  |
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Date: 12/12/2003 11:16:00 AM
From Authorid: 62060
Also, what holy book is titled 'The Apocalypse'? I've tried looking but cant find it - i would really like to read it, so can you help? |
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Date: 12/16/2003 7:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 62222
62060 The book in the Bible about the Apocalypse is also called "Revelations". Hope that helps.<RH> |
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Date: 12/20/2003 4:54:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 59876
pammyjo, here is the information you requested. i'm sorry it took so long, but i had to find the page again. i hope you find it interesting. i did. http://i.am/jah/ |
Date: 12/22/2003 9:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 62085
Gods of the New Age include Sanatan and Sanatsiyata, . . . New Agers say each name is 'concealed anagrammatically' 'and are aliases,' and are 'an anagram used for Occult purposes. Is Santa, the great usurper of Christ's attention at Christmas, an anagram? "Ole Nick" is listed among the fallen angels or devils in the Dictionary of Fallen Angels. Scholars concur that Christ was born in the fall on the 4th day of the feast of tabernacles. December 25 is actually "the feast in honor of the birth of the son of the Babylonian queen of heaven, later called Saturnaha by the heathen Romans."  |
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Date: 12/22/2003 9:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 62085
ole saint nick? Old Nick: "A well-known British name of the Devil. It seems probable that this name is derived from the Dutch Nikken, the devil |
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