Date: 1/30/2004 3:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 33925
We know that the Lord prophesied what would come in the last days...  |
Date: 1/30/2004 4:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 19460
After the whole Adam and Eve incident, God knew what people were capable of. He knew we would all turn out like the way we have. And I guess he hit the nail on the head for some folks, know what I mean?  |
Date: 1/30/2004 5:02:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
This may be the case but it is also in line with the scripture that says that Satan would be thrown out of heaven and cause turmoil on the earth, having great anger knowing his time left is very short. People have gone from bad to worse over the years. And while there may have been some of this going on throughout history, never on the scale that it is now. It's like a cancer that has spread throughout the planet effecting every culture.  |
Date: 1/30/2004 5:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 42792
It has been like this forever it is simply that technology allows us to broadcast it now. It, however painful it may be to admit, is called human nature. We are, afterall, animals.  |
Date: 1/30/2004 5:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
If these are signs of the last days, the last days have been happening for thousands of years.  |
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Date: 1/30/2004 5:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 42792
Which would make perfect sense because as soon as something begins, it also is on the path to the end. For example, the moment we are conceived, we begin to die. |
Date: 1/30/2004 5:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
Like I said in your other post, you believe the same thing that others have for thousands of years. The reasons haven't change for people believing they're in the end times. Each generation uses this verse to show why, yet it hasn't happened. You bring nothing new to the debate that hasn't been claimed for thousands of years. People always believe it's the end for psychological reasons more than religious reasons.  |
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Date: 1/30/2004 6:09:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
Base Jesus said that these things would occur within a generation. If Satan was kicked out of heaven when Jesus took the throne he said that there would be signs on the earth to show that he has taken his rightfull place on the right hand of God as King. Look at the signs that he gave us. There is no doubt that many of these signs began in 1914. And this is in agreement with the scriptures in Daniel as to the timeline. So according to the evidence, we are in the time of the end. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 6:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 42792
It was also stated that the world was created in less than a week. Even if I did believe in this elaborate fairy tale I would have to deduce that god's sense of time differs greatly from ours.
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Date: 1/30/2004 6:16:00 AM
From Authorid: 32806
I would disagree that man was not like this before 1914. When you read history ALL these traits have been evidenced before, during and after Jesus was around. Can you seriously say you believe that humankind did not have these traits UNTILL 1914??? Theres more of it now in simple numbers yes, but, there are a LOT more people around now too. Do a % comparison on ANY time in humankinds history and I believe you will find it hasn't changed much.  |
Date: 1/30/2004 6:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 59163
i personally can't wait for the end of days. the next step in human history  |
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Date: 1/30/2004 6:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 59163
ever since man disobeyed god we have been on a quest of our own making, reaching for our own goals. a time when man can create his own paradise, with peace between man and man, and man and nature. the end of days could very well be upon us, but do not be afraid. this is the logical progression of mankind. the next step in our history. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 6:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 59163
The prophets, in their messianic concept, confirmed the idea that man had been right in disobeying; that he had not been corrupted by his "sin", but freed from the fetters of pre-human harmony. For the prophets, history is the place where man becomes human; during its unfolding he develops his powers of reason and of love until he creates a new harmony between himself, his fellow man, and nature. This new harmony is described as "the end of days", that period of history in which there is peace between man and man, between man and nature. It is a "new" paradise created by man himself, and one which he alone could create because he was forced to leave the "old" paradise as a result of his disobedience. |
Date: 1/30/2004 7:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
NKA, in the bible, it says that 1,000 years to Jehovah is like one day. So I do agree, God's sense of time is different than ours. A day to us is just that, a literal day.  |
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Date: 1/30/2004 7:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
2 Peter 3:3-4 - 3)"For you know this first, that in the last days ther ewill come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4) and saying: where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation's beginning." Sounds like the many that will not acknowledge the time period that we are living in and doing no different than those before the pre-flood period, only to have perish. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 7:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"Sounds like the many that will not acknowledge the time period that we are living in and doing no different than those before the pre-flood period, only to have perish." - Seems like you don't want to accept this 'signs' has always been happening. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 7:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Well, according the the scripture quoted, I believe I will go with the bible's view on the last days. Thanks though! |
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Date: 1/30/2004 7:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 59163
have anyone ever thought that perhaps the "signs of the end times" are just logical deductions of humanity that intelligent people made concerning the end of the age of religon as we know it? the end of this era in history, this speck, and the dawn of the new one. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 7:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
I'll choose to go with history. Don't hold your breath waiting. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 7:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Trust me, I won't. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 9:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
But that's not the first time they said that Christ returned to earth. The WBTS said Christ returned in 1847 and would begin his visible reign in 1914. When 1914 did not come to be true, Christ did not show up, there was a mass exodus from the Church because of the failed prophecy. They were forced to act quickly to stop the exodus so they said they had the dates wrong and changed it to Christ did come in 1914 but invisibly. Then they went on to say that before the generation that witnessed the events of 1914 passed away that the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world would be fulfilled and Jesus will begin his reign on Earth. As the end of that generation got near, 1975 was "found" to be the date. As 1975 approached The Church actually encouraged people to not go to college, and to refrain from getting married or having children before Armageddon. When 1975 passed with nothing the Church who had praised people publicly in the Watchtower for selling their homes, and giving up everything they had in preparation turned around and chastized them saying that that's never what the intended, yet you can look back now and see it's exactly what they meant. The Church suffered another mass exodus and was forced again to change its teachings. That's just a few of their failed prophecies but according to the Bible it only takes one to know they are not a true prophet of God and speaking from God. So, sorry I can't buy into your end time doctrine of men drama. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 10:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
Leaving your man made doctrine, the world has improved not declined. There's less famine, less death, less wars, less disease. May not seem like it to you with all the crime in the US but the United States does not make up the entire world. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 10:37:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
Base because they were not exact in their calculations does this discredit them for what they have accomplished? I know of no other religious organization that has been able to discipher prophesies they way that they have and I am not talking doctrines here but occurances that have happened in line with ancient prophesy. We see it so ever so clear. thanks for your input. |
Date: 1/30/2004 10:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 27403
And exactly when was it that men were NOT like this! This could be applied to any time span within the history of humankind. Love and Light  |
Date: 1/30/2004 10:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
However< your right.  |
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Date: 1/30/2004 10:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
I want to get in on this pammy jo, but I need a nap first, I cant think, need sleep. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 10:58:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
*Falls over in a coma* |
Date: 1/30/2004 12:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 13952
pamyjo....i do not know base and have never spoke to him personally but he is correct ...you can not continue to say this system is ending in the next few years as jw's have done since 1887 and not lose some creditability .....you not continue to change things and call it brighter light.....  |
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Date: 1/30/2004 1:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
That remains to be seen Jim, Personally, I'll continue to have faith that this system is on it's last leg. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 1:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Then Pamy Jo you have not studied other organizations or you would see that the Watchtower's teachings are not unique to them. But I'm guessing since you think they are they do not give credit to where they get their information. Read some things about the Albigensians and Italian Cathars, Anabaptists, Scholasticism, Arianism, Gnosticism, Adoptionism, Paulicians, The Apostle Creed followers, Messalians, Waldensianism, Gugliemites and many others and you will see that all your Churches teachings have been taught before by various denominations. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 1:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
Base, I disagree with you, for they do credit where the source of information from come in numerous publications, articles, etc. No offense, but if you are going to argue over what the society do or don't do, at least make sure some of what you state is accurate. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 1:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
Should say come from. Sorry... |
Date: 1/30/2004 2:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 62367
This sounds like a good piece of social criticism targeting the Roman Empire. It also applies to nearly every other civilization since. I would suggest a book called Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchman that tells the story of the Black Death in 14th century Europe when nearly everyone believed the end of the world had come. They had far more reason than we do to think that the world will end in the next few years. I am a practicing Christian who believes the end will come in Gods own time, not mans.  |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:06:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
I was going to say the same thing as Girlie, the Society has always given credit to the one that the information came from. They do not take credit for something that someone else has figured out. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
But here is the mystery to me. Where in this post did PamyJo make mention of an exact end date? All she said was that we are living in what the bible calls the last days and anyone who profess to be a christian and an avid reader of the bible know and can CLEARLY see the "signs" that are mentioned in Matthew 24 and 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Yes, some of what happened in the past is no different than now, however, now they seem to be happening on a larger scale. You can continue to call foul against the organization all you like and continue to point a finger all you wish, that doesn't change the bible's view of the times we are living in. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:15:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
And to add to your comment, they are ALL happening NOW as where an isolated incident here and there in the past made headlines, now it happens every day, day in and day out. So it should come as no surprize that we are indeed living in the end of this system of things as we know it. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Girlie I never said they did or didn't. I said I was guessing that didn't give credit, meaning I was not sure if they did or did not. If they do that's cool, they should let people know where their teachings come from. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
They all happened during the Age of Enlightenment and on a much larger scale than now. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
I believe that famine, wars, pestilences, etc. now have far exceeded the the age of enlightment. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
But you did say that. lol |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
none of those come close nowadays to what happened in the past |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
The way things are going nowadays, I find that hard to believe. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
you find that hard to believe? study up on world history and you'll see that nowadays is nothing compared to the world hundreds and thousands of years ago |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
Base, I do know that there were violence, wars, etc in the past, but the times that we are living in is very different and a bit more hectic than some history textbook and has intensified. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 2:57:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
But all of the signs are happening now. Thats the point, when you hear of earthquakes, food shortages, pestilence, crime, lovers of money rather than lovers of God. You can't deny that this means something. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 3:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
The times you live in now are different you're right, they're better than in the past and you should feel lucky you actually live now and not then. All the signs have always happened the things you claim to be the signs have always existed and today on a much smaller scale than in the past. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 3:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
Base, it is obvious that we will not agree on this. I am not minimizing what happened in the past. Alot of cruel things have happened, but that still doesn't change the biblical view of the last days and it still will not change that we are living in them. I suppose this is a to each its own. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 3:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
No we won't agree because I can't see how you come to that conclusion. People nowadays on average live much longer than hundreds of years ago and are healthier. There's less disease because of medicine and vaccines. Twenty million people died from the black plague in the 14th century. In 1520 half the Aztec population died from smallpox. In 1830 in Shansi China 830,000 people died in an earthquake the worst in recorded history. The most recent in Iran is not even in the top 25 worst earthquakes in history. The amount of major earthquakes has declined over the past 100 years. As for famine or food shortages, the amount of people who are starving has dramatically decreased in the last 100 years because of worldwide food programs. There is no shortage of food going on. Crime was completely out of control during the middle ages, people went through cities raping, pillaging and murdering people at random. Wars have declined. The fact that your Church is even allowed to stand is something that would not have happened centuries ago. The Catholic Church while persecuting a denomination who did not agree with them went to a city where they believed a lot of them fled. Since they were afraid many would claim to agree with the Church and they had no way of knowing if they were telling the truth or not, they killed the entire city even the Christians, 30,000 people. I can see the people who lived in those times thinking they were in the end times because of the wars, crimes, plagues, living conditins and just watching as half their children never made it to adulthood. The world and its living conditions have improved immensely. Christianity is the world's largest and still fastest growing religion and I'm supposed to believe it's the end times. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 4:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
These are some of the statistics that I have gathered from the World Health Organization regarding the "decrease" in disease. According to its 2003 statistics on HIV/AIDS, it is estimated that 40 million people WORLDWIDE are living with HIV/AIDS. A DISEASE WHERE THERE IS NO CURE AND DEATH IS INEVITABLE. In the 20th century alone, 100 million people died from tobacco-related diseases. In 2000, cancer claimed nearly 56 million lives, and the rate of cancer is still increasing with an alarming 15 million new cases that could be expected by 2020. No food shortages you say? Not according to Amnesty International. North Korea is struggling from this "silent famine" because of the food restrictions imposed by it's government, which has been going on for a decade. The Congo wars have claimed 3.3 million lives over the last decade; a war that is still going on as we speak. Over 6 million lost their lives in the Holocaust. And the list goes on and on and on. But the point is, how were things better now than the past? So yes I can and do say with certainty that we are living in the last days. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 4:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
And the things I have posted are things AFTER 1914. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 6:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
And the equivalent of all those things you posted happened before and on a larger scale. Aids has no cure right now, just like smallpox, polio, measles, mumps and rubella had no cure at one time. They all have vaccines available now and most can be treated when caught in time, just because there is no cure or vaccine for aids right now does not mean there won't be one in 10 or 15 years, pandemics have always been around. Cancer is not a new disease it has actually been around throughout recorded history. There are fossilized bones with tumors in them. The bone remains of some mummies suggest they died from cancer. The oldest description of cancer dates back to 1600 BC. Then they had no chemotherapy or radiation treatment. The survival rate of cancer has increased. North Korea suffers because of sanctions against the country, if the sanctions were removed tomorrow, the "silent famine" would be eliminated unlike the Irish famine and other famines that were caused by droughts and nature. In the 1900's around the world there were 152 wars, in the 1800's there were 224 wars. War has existed throughout history. I for one am grateful for living in the time I do, knowing I could have had it a lot worse. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 6:29:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
Thank you for posting that research Girlie, one thing that wasn't mentioned was heart disease. Stress and stress related illness are also causes of cancer and heart disease. One thing that I believe this generation suffers from in record numbers is depression. More depression medication is dispensed now than at any other time. And I am sure you will say that it is because meds are available now that were not back then but the evidence shows that even young children suffer from depression that have never before. Divorce is rampant, cheating, physical and sexual abuse on young children even babies, petty theft is almost the norm in the work place. Insurance fraud, family members killing other family members, children killing parents and parents their children. People although rare, kill and eat their victims. I just don't see how it can get any clearer. Society has a cancer that has no cure other than to wipe it out and start over. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 6:30:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 160
Thank you Base, you always bring intelligent comments to a post. Even if we don't agree on things you're a pretty cool guy. |
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Date: 1/30/2004 7:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
I don't actually think depression is any worse than it ever was, it's just that it's diagnosed more and people want a quick fix. In the past people got depressed but they had a different outlook on life, they didn't have the life should be easy mentality so when faced with problems they were able to deal with them and overcome them on their own. I agree with you on the divorce rate is much higher, but infidelty has always existed. I don't think the physical and sexual abuse is higher it's just reported more often now and what is considered child abuse now wasn't in the past. Also as far as a lot of what you're saying they're problems mainly within the US. The family structure in the US collapsed and some of what you mention is the result of that. |
