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Were we right to go to war, or should we have not got involved? Step by step ... TSK

  Author:  35042  Category:(Debate) Created:(3/22/2004 5:06:00 PM)
This post has been Viewed (787 times)

Were we right to go to war, or should we not have got involved?

Some people are saying that at the moment there have been no "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq which posed a threat to the West, and, as this was the reason we went to war, the war was wrong and unjust.

Let's break this down. Either:

1. there ARE weapons of mass destruction in Iraq; or

2. there are NOT weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Ok, so as we haven't found any yet, then either:

3. (1) above is still true, but we have yet to find them; or

4. (1) above is not true, and we haven't found any because there aren't any.

Ok, so, for a moment let's think about the most 'wrong' scenario for the coalition - that of there not being any weapons of mass destuction in Iraq (4 above).

Supposing (4) is correct, is that really the basis we went to war? No, of course not, America, Britain, France, Russia, India, Pakistan, Turkey, Japan and Australia are all known to have nuclear weapons, and many others will have biological/chemical capability, so why Iraq? What made it stand out? Let's look at a few possibilities and then think about them.

1. Iraq was a direct danger to the West;

2. Iraq was an indirect danger to the West;

3. Iraq was a destabilising influence in the Middle East;

4. Bush wanted to finish-off a war his father started;

5. The West has a dislike for Muslims; and/or

6. The West wanted control of Iraq's oil.

Ok, so what about these?

1. Was it a 'direct danger'? Could it actually launch a missile to any Western target? No, nothing like. This cannot be the reason.

2. 'Indirect danger' is much more vague. Iraq was known to fund fanatical muslim groups and pay money to the families of palestinians who blew themselves up in suicide attacks. However, these were normally targetted at Israel and so can't really be considered a danger to the West. BUT we have to bear in mind the connection state-funded terrorism had to September 11 and the fact that Al Quaeda and Saddam Hussein were very closely linked.

3. What do I mean by 'destabilising the region'? Well I mean adding to the tensions between Israel and the rest of the middle east. Israel does very little to help itself and the 'merits' of the situation there is another whole topic I don't want to get into, but essentially they are a hornet's nest that does not need to be stirred-up. It would be all too easy (indeed it was tried in the first Gulf War) for Iraq (or another arab nation) to launch a missile attack on an Israeli city to spark a reaction. Israel has nuclear capability and is well-known to (over)react to situations. This sort of thing could spark a new Israeli/Arab conflict in the region far beyond what we have seen before and would suck in much of the world in its aftermath. Not a road we want to venture down. So was Iraq the only one intent on stirring this up? Possibly not, but it was the only one trying to actively do it.

4. Much as Mr Bush comes from a conservative background etc, gone are the days where one followed in the footsteps of your family's quest, not faltering until it was finished. Not only this, but Tony Blair and the other leaders who assisted in the aftermath of September 11 and the war in Iraq would not get sucked-in in some new-age crusade. Blair may be many things, but he is not stupid and it would simply not happen as it did if (4) was the reason.

5. Not at all. This is the kind of thing that is indoctrinated into young children in certain parts of the middle east and is far from ther case in the West. Muslims/Arabs form an important part of most western societies, so this reason is clearly not correct.

6. Oil. I have heard many people speak of oil and how it's all to do with oil. When you ask them "How exactly?", they reply, "well, it's all about control isn't it?". "Is it?" I ask. The West already purchases much of the Iraqi oil at prices set by an internation body (OPEC - Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries). Much of the oil wells are already owned by Shell, BP Amoco etc etc, so there is very little difference here. Bottom line, it really isn't about oil.

Wow, if you've managed to read this far, you'll be wondering where that leaves us... By my count, the only possibly suggestions from above that hold any water are (2) and (3) - in that the Iraqi regime was an indirect danger to the West and it had a very dangerous destabilising effect on the region, and ultimately, the world.

"The world"? Surely I'm over reacting? Well think about it this way. Supposing a nerve agent or Anthrax attack (as Saddam did to his own people pre the first Gulf war) had been launched on Israel by Iraqi agents, or even directly and obviously from Iraq, what would be likely to happen?

1. Israel would launch a savage attack back, and, depending on the severity of the damage to Israel, a tactical nuclear strike could not be ruled out.

2. Iraq would launch an appeal to the rest of the Muslim world saying that the Jews were attacking the Muslims and it is the religious duty of every Muslim to help in the holy fight.

3. The situation in the region would spiral and, with Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Turkey having nuclear capability, the rest of the world would be obliged to step in at some level.

******

I think that once you look at the simple breakdown of thoughts and steps above, the case for war, even with all its evils and difficulties, becomes all the more necessary and something that needs to be done. I appreciate that people should be allowed to voice there disapproval of such things, but I only hope that they have actually thought about it and the alternatives, and not just pulled on their multi-coloured sweater, eaten their grenola and cycled to the anti-war march.

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Replies:      
Date: 3/22/2004 6:02:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    War is a tool of last resort when all other means of resolving differences are exhausted. In this case, all other means had not been exhausted. If Washington did indeed know of WMDs like they said, then surgical strikes would have effectively taaken care of them. To resort to war on the scale Bush did is like cutting off your head to get rid of a sinus cold.  
Date: 3/22/2004 6:49:00 PM  From Authorid: 19685    I agree that it IS necessary. sad and scary as it is. But we HAD to, so that all the hippies whining about going to war could live to whine about it.  
Date: 3/22/2004 7:46:00 PM  From Authorid: 32806    There was no link between Saddam and al qaeda. In fact Osama had called for his followers to dispose of saddam. Differing views on Islam. I believe Osama had more in common with the shiite majority that Saddams Sunni minority were oppressing.
The hatred of the muslim world is directed at the west because we support and arm the Israelis who have broken multiple UN resolutions, just like Iraq did, and are in fact, not only a very new imposed state in the area (setup after WWII) but they are very oppressive towards the indigenous peoples of the area and are actively doing a creeping invasion (illegal settlements in the hundreds). The Israeli policy of demolishing family homes of suicide bombers is nothing short of terrorism. Israelis harp on about how many of them get killed, yet 3 times as many palestinians are killed than Israelis. And the palestians are defending themselves in the only way they can as we in the west, with Israel, do not allow them a conventional army with which to defend themselves or deter further invasion of the prime lands in the area.

Until we face up to the fact we are arming and supporting a terrorist state in Israel (just like the USA funded the IRA to attack the UK- an allie) there will continue to be ill will towards us from the muslim people. I can understand that feeling as my dad served in Ireland for the British army, and we well knew the USA people were funding them. Not pleasant to know your main global allie is doing that :( Settling the differences between the Israelis and the muslims will go a long way to stabilising the area and taking away the grounds for extremists like saddam and osama to get support.
Btw, the oil "wells" may be owned by western oil companies (not too sure on that issue as there were contracts between Iraq to france and russia to have access to the oil) but the oil is owned by the Iraqi people, NOT by BP or any other western oil company. They have the largest economically accessable reserves in the world. By 2050 most of the worlds economically viable reserves will be gone. There will still be a lot of oil, but in much smaller fields and in less easy geology to remove, so being very much more expensive to extract, very much more expensive. So the oil aspect is a very important factor when you look at it that way.
There can be only one excuse for the war (publically) and that is regime change, which is against international law, and opens the question of any nation that considers anothers leadership to be inappropiate has been given legitimate reason to attack whoever they wish under that guise, a very dangerous path. And if that was the reason, why are we not removing other tyrannical despots all around the world? They don't have oil?
A conventional army may be able to forcibly march anywhere in the world but they cannot deal with or defeat a non conventional force that has no single place in which it resides. We cannot bomb our way to victory against organistions like Al Qaeda, even though we have the best equipped armies. Anyone with some military experience will know this. Did you learn anything from the Vietnam war? Yes you won most battles, but lost the war because you were not facing an army that stuck to the way you wanted to fight. Organisations like Al qaeda will be defeated when they lack support because their people are treated fairly and allowed to live on their own lands freely.

So to me the reasons for the war were NOTHING to do with terrorism or Iraqs ability to strike at us. After WWII USA and Russia were involved in a global war although not directly bombing each other, the cold war, remember it? This was the guise under which both USA and Russia intefered in many other nations affairs with only their own war with each other in mind. Our own interests have been followed in the muslims lands for decades with no real care for how we have affected them, except to establish an Israeli state. You have to look at the history of the area and the wests influence there to understand the causes. Reacting to symptoms (the war on terrorism) is a knee jerk reaction. The muslim peoples have to be empowered to look after their own affairs and resourses in whatever way they chose to, as we do with ours. While they do not, and we are responsible for stopping them, there will be no end, no victory. I still hold that the war was about oil and our access to it. Hundreds of thousands of troops in the country, and they cannot find the WMD's even though they have the info that they didn't give to the UN inspectors. They have had a year to look now, need more time, and still claim they will find them. Yet wouldn't give the UN inspectors a few more weeks. I know we all like to believe that what our country does is right and just, but it isn't. Although the American and British peoples are good, our governments are not. While our governments are completely unaccountable for their secret wars worldwide, hiding behind the screen of can't tell us because of national security, we have NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE REALLY DOING. They plain lie to us and get away with it. eg Bush campaigned partly on protecting Alaska from huge oil exploitation, yet soon as he was in power, he started to open the way for oil companies to go in. Blair is the same, the labour manisfesto stated no rise in fees for higher education, yet thats what we got. If they cannot keep their word on domestic policies which made us vote for them (and get away with it), do you really think we can trust what they say on issues we can't even know the inside story on? I would say that the peoples of all nations are good, it is our LEADERS that create the conditions for what we are now witnessing. Sorry this a long response, I actually deleted loads, but it is a complex issue and go's back a long way. The world is not black and white, and our governments policies are not as innocent as they try to make them out to be. There is blame on both sides, ours may be the greatest.
  
Date: 3/22/2004 8:41:00 PM  From Authorid: 62585    The biggest question i have is....WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? ~Charmed One~  
Date: 3/23/2004 3:49:00 AM  From Authorid: 37101    George Bush was right and wrong when he sent us to Iraq. Granted, he may have wanted to mop up his fathers mess and rid the world of a leader whom had killed hundreds of thousands and people and gotten away with it. Hundreds of thousands - None of the worst serial killers of the United States have killed anywhere near 100,000 people and they've recieved the death penalty. Ending the reign of a cruel leader, I believe that was justified. If we find WMD's, great! If we don't, we've still succeeded with Sadaam Hussein's capture. -  
Date: 3/23/2004 8:45:00 AM  From Authorid: 28899    Mr. Lawyer goes to Baghdad, eh? lol. You do make a good case. However, one thing sticks out: "the fact that Al Quaeda and Saddam Hussein were very closely linked." Last I heard, that was determined to be right-wing propoganda, at best. But then, they haven't found WMD yet, so maybe they'll find hard evidence linking Saddam and Bin in the same search. Anyway, Cicero up there put it best. However thorough the examination, a person simply can not make a clear analysis of the facts when the facts are the one thing that said person can not confirm.  
Date: 3/23/2004 10:51:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 35042    Sagi and UT, you both have hit on essentially the same point, and quite possibly the crux of many a person's arguement, that Al Qaeda and Hussein were never linked and this was actually a cynical attempt by the Whitehouse PR machine to make it look as if they were to bring it all under the "war on terror" banner. How linked they actually were/are is a little hard to decipher, and I certainly wouldn't profess to be able to give you the definitive answer. Yes they were different Muslims, and yes, Saddam did treat the Shiites very poorly, and so presumably annoy Bin Ladin, but they were surely united in much the same goal? Saddam didn't want to be actively seen by the West to be taking the battle to them - he had already seen that very little provocation was required, unlike Al Qaeda of course, but then, on the other hand he did meet with many important members within the Taleban, a group very closely linked with Bin Ladin... The link is enough for me, but even then, if you take it away, the arguement for war above still stands...  
Date: 3/23/2004 11:35:00 AM  From Authorid: 62060    I may not agree with the reasons for going to war, but I think any event that saves the lives of thousands by deposing a dictator who took power in a bloody coup and gassed his own people has to have some justification.  
Date: 3/24/2004 4:36:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 35042    Absolutely Firestorm - and that's only the tip of the iceberg...  
Date: 3/24/2004 4:59:00 PM  From Authorid: 53284    A great deal of the dissatisfaction in the arab countries has to do with high unemployment. The governments have actively encouraged hatred of Isreal and/or the US to keep the pressure off of their own front door. Everything that is wrong is blamed on the US and Isreal. The concept of a free press doesn't exist for most of those countries. How can a fair and balanced view exist. As for the Palestianians fighting in the only way they know how, just today, a retarded teenager was stopped at a checkpoint with a bomb vest. Is that the only way to fight? I don't by the argument that the US is all wrong and the Muslims are all right. I think that the truth lies somewhere in between what both sides say. As for Sadam, I'm glad he and his perverted little sons are no longer running a country. Iraq now has the chance to become a great country, but I think that when the US pulls out there will be civil war, more death and killing.  
Date: 3/24/2004 5:10:00 PM  From Authorid: 27403    I take it you are speaking on the war in Iraq, not the war on Terrorism. And I definitely think we should be in a war on terrorism, and I MOST definitely think the war on Iraq was and is just a ploy to gain control of Iraqi oil and ultimately world power. I think Pres.Bush is a neo-conservative is wants to rid the world of anyone and any country that is not Christian; except for Israel, because of Jewish money! Believe me, if they didn't control so much money and interests, he would NOT be protecting Israel. Love and Light  
Date: 3/26/2004 4:51:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    I am saddened to see so many people around USM, justifying the war by saying "well, as long as we got rid of saddam, that's the important thing" when nothing could be further from the truth. THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. The logic that justifies the war based solely on the fact, that saddam was removed from power, could be used to suggest genocide as a solution to unrest in the middle east.  
Date: 3/30/2004 5:58:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    I think we should've taken Saddam out in Desert Storm but I understand why we couldn't at that point. The goal of that war was to get them out of Kuwait...as for this war, I still feel it was LONG over due. The suffering, torchure, murder and oppression of the Iraqi's by Saddam and his sons...but unexcusable. Regardless of any controversial motivations that may or may not have been a reason for this war, it was still the RIGHT thing to do.  

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