Date: 5/16/2004 1:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 30229
Sara, I am not sure what I think... I agree with what you are saying, but something that I am going through right now that is extremely emotional makes me rethink a lot of things... make sense?  |
Date: 5/16/2004 7:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
I think you have a pretty good perspective and I agree that God Does Intervene in those instances where He Need to to have His Plan come to fruition. God Bless.  |
Date: 5/16/2004 7:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 22992
That is a very thought provoking discussion.. i have to think about this for a while.  |
Date: 5/16/2004 11:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 62424
Thats a good question. I think its because...hes's testing us. He's testing our faith to see if we are worthy of going to heaven. Why have people in your kingdom if they dont trust you to make things better when things are rough?. At times I get angry with god...and I feel that hes forsaking us. But he just wants to see if we fully trust him. And he gives us pain so we can truly understand happieness...I think thats why. No one really knows the answer except for the big guy himself.  |
Date: 5/16/2004 4:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt return"
This is all directly attributed to original sin. All of it is in this life not the next. If Jesus paid the price of sin why did all this horrible crap not stop at the resurection?
IF Jesus paid the price for our sins why does God keep sending us the bill? Did 'Jesus' "check" bounce?  |
|
Date: 5/16/2004 4:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
“In the end we'll find out” is what most religions say. The promise that, one day in the future, death will be no more is on the same level as the Buddhist promise that if you behave badly you’ll be reincarnated as a cockroach. If Christianity were truly unique and true, its promise would be HERE, NOW , clearly visible to all. The proof would be so easy for the Christian God to provide! Just immunize your followers against death, and that would be so clear a proof. Instead, what do we get? Endless suffereing and After-death and end-times promises. Just like any OTHER religion. |
Date: 5/16/2004 10:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12581
Personally, I don't have a religion so for the most part, my ideas are things I've come up with on my own. 62424, My question to the idea that God is testing us is, why on earth does he need to do so if he can see into our hearts? He doesn't need all this face value stuff, he can already SEE who we are. I truly don't believe that God CAUSES any sort of suffering, it happens. For instance. Pain causes alot of suffering, without this feeling though, we would hurt & maim ourselves constantly, cause if you couldn't feel yourself getting hurt, you'd do alot of damage. It is nature or PEOPLE who can distort this pain, make it a tool of suffering. Plus, like in instances when we are hurt very badly by another person, which causes us pain, that can be used as a lesson tool. I have had a life with many painful instances, I have learned immensly from being treated badly, most importantly Compassion & Kindness. The world is made up of positives & negatives, yet the negatives also have value, they hold the key to wisdom. Thanks for all your wonderful opinions & Take Care!  |
|
Date: 5/16/2004 10:21:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12581
Thinker, your statements are one of the reasons why I lack belief in an organized religion, to me, the God's portrayed in most world religions, acts far too much like a man, anger, vengeful, to me, God is alot more understanding & compassionate. Why do I believe in God or a higher power? It's a feeling I have, somthing in my heart that tells me there's somthing more. But I do have to say Thinker, it seems as though you may have been jaded about Christianity. Easy to happen, I have been there but I keep in mind that everyone is entitled to their beliefs, you don't have to like them, but they should be respected. I don't mean to be presumptuous, just seems like I sensed a little Agroness in your comment? If not, then please forgive me. Thanks so much for sharing though & Take Care! |
|
Date: 5/17/2004 7:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Quote: "entitled to their beliefs, you don't have to like them, but they should be respected"<<<<Whenever Christians say this, what they REALLY mean is: "No matter how much disrespect I hold or show toward OTHER beliefs, or NON-believers, this is OK, but you better not disrespect Christianity". THAT is exactly what is shown to me on almost a daily basis. The hypocrisy is palpable. "Jaded by Christianity"?? WHOSE fault is that? "Agroness"?? Is that a word? Do you mean: "anger"? Again, when ever there is any criticism, or when there are any questions ask of the Christians, that they don't like and or don't want to think about or answer, then it is an all out attempt to try to make the non-believer out to be: angry, bitter, lost, deceived by satan, or any other such false perceptions. It is a kill-the-messenger kind of thing, and then they even try to tell ME, that THEY know for sure WHY I don't have a belief in this God! They ASSUME they know MY mind, and will describe in detail THEIR REASONS why they think I don't believe. It is ALL OVER THIS SITE. I ask that you listen, accept, and respect MY explanations as being MY reasons for MY nonbelief, and not yours.....and that seems to be too much to ask. Ah, but you ask that I respect YOURS while not respecting MINE....um.... I ask just where is the reasoning, where is the truth in that kind of thinking. |
Date: 5/17/2004 7:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 62681
The Thinker brings up an interesting point, about the concept of Original Sin and all. As Jews, we don't believe in Original Sin. In fact, we don't even really talk about sin. There's abominations, sure; but sin? The Hebrew word for "sin" simply means "error." In the creation story, where Original Sin is supposed to originate -- there's really nothing there that the Hebrews would recognize in the Christian reading. To some degree, it's simply a "Just So..." story that explains human origins and how animals got their name and why does childbirth hurt and why do I have to work so hard for things to grow. It was never meant to imply that everyone ever after is filled with sin. -- The Wandering Jew  |
|
Date: 5/29/2004 12:42:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12581
Thinker, Agroness is a word of mine :p It's pretty much my quirky take on the work Aggressiveness. I am sorry you didn't appreciate it :( My point was actually this. You said "If Christianity were truly unique and true, its promise would be HERE, NOW , clearly visible to all. The proof would be so easy for the Christian God to provide!" First of all the post wasn't even about the Christian God, I was speaking about the idea of God in general, not one attached to any particular religion. Yet, my perception to what you were saying, was pretty Anti-Religion, if I had belonged to one of those religions you mentioned, I may have taken offense to what you said, it personally felt like an attack, but perhaps I am wrong. But all the post was me just kinda stating a thought process that I had been mulling over & I was kinda taken by surprise, I didn't know what to think about your response. What I meant about you being more respectful was that, my post had nothing to do with organised religion & more of a philosophy of just how the universe works & I felt sorta attacked, I was like wow where is this coming from! My post had nothing to do with Jesus, or Christianity, or the Bible or ANY SORT OF organised religion! It was just my beliefs, I wasn't trying to argue a point or anything, just sharing. I was trying to relate with you because I have been personally jaded by having other peoples beliefs jammed down my throat. Does that mean I believe EVERYONE in a certain relgion is so rude or stupid? No, to say every single one is, would to be giving a group of people a stereotype. Yes, there are some folks that give it a bad name but such is the case everywhere you turn in life. But here's my belief, it really sucks when someone slams my religion, puts me down, so I refuse to be rotton right back to them or make a consorted effort to prove them wrong, because I would sink to their level, I refuse for their nastiness to rub off on me, ya know?? There's enough darkness in life, I try to make light. You acted as though I opposed what you said & that wasn't my intent. I understand what it's like to be put down, belittled, my name dragged through the dirt & then have people justify it in their Gods name. I admit I am jaded. But to get mad, put them down, say their a bunch of hypocrites or how unbelievable their beliefs are, does absolutely NOTHING to fix the situation. To me, let them act stupid, let them profess to know the mind of God & hurt people in his name that's on their head, not mine. I choose to be a better person & do what I wished they would do for me & respect them. Now if they insult me personally, I'm gonna defend myself & I'm not going to like the ideas that organised religion sometimes imposes on the world, but to take that out on the religion or people belonging to that particular relgion as a whole would be wrong to me. In my eyes, it's being just as narrow minded & awful as they are. I saw a car the other day, the only bumper sticker on it had the world Marriage equals and it had a man & a female stick figure. I wanted to smash the ladies car, ram my car into it repeatedly & smash that ugly bigotry on her bumper, but then I thought, it's her loss for being such an idiot, she's the one lost in all the negativity & being such a small person, I think of it as being utterly blind & pathetic, then I am thankful I don't really have any true prejudices. I respect her because she has so little respect, it's a weird concept but I'm trying to counteract the negative. I respect however anyone may feel about spirituality or the world, or whatever, where my respect ends is when people get hurt by it. That ladies bumper will hurt people & if I saw that lady outside her car, would I call her a bigot & tell her to pull her head from her ahem? Yeah I would. :p I do understand your frustration & I fully respect your beliefs, I don't know how you could think I didn't, it's just to me that this world is full of enough crud, why feed into it? To me, if you had gone into your explanation of why you didn't believe in all this, without naming particular religions, & just simply stating your beliefs, I would have listened much better, just all the religious reference sorta freaked me out. I don't particularily like organised religion ya know? I have always tried to state my beliefs in such a way that it won't be a personally offensive against anyone else's beliefs. If someone takes it as a slam that is their problem but if I would spend all my time trying with all my might to slam back, in my view, I'd drop to their level. My own mother told me that I was going to hell because I was stubborn & proud, although I don't personally know how she looks at herself in the mirror. The same day, she put down my every belief, her dead mother & my adoptive mother, she put down my very being, & to me that was it, I walked away before I hit her. I told her "Yeah well, I'll see you there (as in hell)& get out of my house (less a few explantives), I am never going to speak to you again." She had treated me with utter disrespect for my entire life (didn't raise me, didn't have the right :p) but in the end, I felt I gave her far more respect than she ever imagined giving to me, all the while, retaining my dignity. I figure, let her be a miserable creature, I personally choose to work towards happiness. In my own beliefs, it's a waste of time trying to change the next person, I could never change the person my mother was, instead, I chose to change me instead :) Sorry I have rambled on here :p I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from. Thank you for listening & Take Care! |
|
Date: 5/29/2004 12:43:00 AM ( Admin-AK )
OMG I need to shut up LOL Jeezums that was horribly long *turns red* |
|
Date: 5/29/2004 5:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Akua, You don't ever have to apologize for being long winded to me. I truly appreciate when anyone takes the time to put a lot of thought into whatever they want to say, and they write with such sincerety as you have here. More people should do that. Communication is great, and we can't really get down to the basics; we can't really learn or grow, if everyone just parrots what they've been told or heard; or if we are afraid to speak up or reveal our true inner selves. Now, having said that, I really have a hard time seeing how anyone feels so put down or "disrespected" by what I said. I do not hold this belief in a "God". I do not have this "faith" thing. I do not attribute anything to a "God" of any stripe. To me, one could be talking about a particular automobile that they just love and go on and on about it; but then perhaps I come along and tell you about MY feelings about that particular brand of automobile and or my experiences with it, and it sure differs from yours. I don't think you would get so upset and say that I was "disrespecting" you just because I said I thought the car was a piece of junk or whatever. I don't believe you would think I was rude for saying my thoughts about the car, or that I thought you were stupid for your loving this particular brand of car. A "god" is no different to me. I hold no special reverence for any god. And, furthermore, it seems as though you're not quite sure WHAT god you even believe in? Some sort of GENERIC god, a "higher power" many refer to it as being. Seems like that is so nice and convenient....just call it "God". See, there are no clear....DEFINITIVE concepts of just who "GOD" really is, is there? Everyone seems to just accept , well, you know... God is God. Right? For example: To me, the DEIST God, and the God of Christianity and or Islam are totally different gods. Very few know this or even want to know the vast differences. SO, Akua, if you were not speaking of the Christian God in your Original post up there, then just WHAT god are you speaking of? Or do you really know? Or, perhaps you're still working on it? This is all vague. I guess it should be laid out in a clearer definition of just what "GOD" IS ? Finally, I DO respect OTHERS beliefs in gods. But, I do not have to respect the particular god concept, religion or hold any reverence for either. There is a difference in disliking or dissing a idea, or a concept and disliking or dissing the PERSON who HOLDS that idea/concept to be somehow above reproach, and feels it above and exempt from criticism. I assumed you were talking about the Christian God because you talk about "free will" and this god intervening, and "lessening the blow" and other things which strongly suggests this ; but then again, without going into long detail, there is much there in your initial post that tells me you aren't quite sure, and are even confused about somethings, and mislead about others (example: that 21 grams thingy). Oh, and this is discussion and or debate on a message board. There isn't any personal dissing or "rudeness" in any of my replies here. It may seem that way when you hold a much greater respect and reverence/regard for something that I don't... for something which is only a concept to ME. Nothing personal, dear Akua. Really. Just because I disagree with anyone on anything; or I point out the flaws in the thinking process, or the premises one is espousing in public forums, that does not mean that I am just trying to rile up or cause trouble or that I am a negative person who sees the glass half empty. I certainly am no pollyanna with rose colored glasses person who runs around trying to make everyone happy happy happy either. Hope I'm making a little sense, Akua, it is early morning here. I'm not quite had enough coffee yet. :) Thanks for your reply. |
|
Date: 5/29/2004 6:01:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12581
Thinker, I understand about not believing in a God or having any emotions attached to certain religions, but here's what I see, God, either the Christian God, Islam whatever, holds a great reverence to people, it means ALOT to folks. Now when something means so much to someone, I will try to tread softly & let them believe their own way & respect their belief because I try very hard to respect others (except when they outright hurt me or another, nothing makes me madder, I'm sorta a freak about it LOL). In turn, I hope that people show me the same courtesy & respect. It's pretty much how I live, treating others how I'd like to be treated & having the utmost care as to not hurt someone unnecisarily. Yeah, I do mess up, I am human & passionate at that, but I try my durndest. I guess it would help to clarify about my own personal little religion:) I don't believe in any organized religions God or institutions of God, I feel they are man, using God, to get what they want. I say God because that is what people associate most with some sort of higher being. I have my own ideas, I follow my own path, ya know? I think adhearing to a certain set of beliefs can be debilitating. I don't agree with many of man's interpetation of God. My God is alot more universal & really doesn't have any of the hangups that most religions Gods do LOL Because I don't have any of man's idea's to go by on God, all I can do is guess but really I have no clue. Why do I believe? Like I said it's a feeling I have & some of the things in my life I cannot explain & to me science falls short to explain, so I cannot say for certain, humanity knows EVERYTHING about the universe, science cannot FULLY rule out God. It's like the folks back in the 50's saying with certainty that there was no matter smaller than an atom, then they found sub-sub-atomic particals LOL The fact that in so many different cultures, even those divided by oceans, over the millenea, Millions upon millions of people have all believed in different (yet some of the same basic ideas are shared) forms of a higher energy, makes me tend to believe there is somthing there. Does all that make sense? It took me along time, after alot of thought, to actually believe in God because of all the negativity I'd had pushed on me. It made no sense at all that a creator of some sort would have been anything at all like a man, cause we're one of the most destructive creatures on the planet LOL. I know I shouldn't really use the world God because my idea of God matches nothing in the books & it is always changing, as I change & grow. Here's a post I made no too long ago, kinda a rambling of ideas :) http://unsolvedmysteries.com/usm379211.html but in all actuallity, I know nothing for certain, to me God could just be that spark of energy that has to be present when a new life of any sort is formed, but consciousness in itself is so amazing, it's hard for me to believe that Chaos formed it'self into the world we see around us. I just dunno but I am open minded to it & I feel that is a good learning tool, I do not adhere to narrow minded beliefs, I try to look at the world as a whole & beyond. Thanks so much for your response, I love bouncing ideas back & forth, I often learn alot :) Take Care! |
