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Date: 5/17/2004 12:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 50864
To me there can never be "proof" of God and or Jesus belief comes from the heart and soul you can never prove or disprove that. So proof is not important to me  |
Date: 5/17/2004 1:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 62599
This one is so ridiculous im not even gonna touch it.........  |
Date: 5/17/2004 2:25:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
really Autopilot, how so? How is this a ridiculous question? Can you add more than a snide comment? I understand Mrs. Strider, that was actually my point.  |
Date: 5/17/2004 2:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 12806
I'll bite this part,"and even if your Holy Book WAS 100% accurate, how does that prove YOUR God(dess), is the right One?" If my Holy Book IS 100% accurate, then MY God would be the RIGHT GOD because HE says so....... Plain and simple.... |
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Date: 5/17/2004 2:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 12806
I also agree with Mrs. Strider. I need no further proof to substanciate my faith other than what I KNOW in my heart..... But I do enjoy a good debate now and then..... |
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Date: 5/17/2004 2:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
Raybone-the Bible is a combination of the Torah (Jewish), and the New Testament Writers who were Greek, Pagan, Jewish, and Palastinian. My question, even if the Historical Parts of the Bible are correct (ie: dates & Kings & such...) how would you know that God said "I am the ONLY God?". After all Elihom is plural, and God (the one from the Bible) said "Let US make him in OUR image", <emphasis mine.> |
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Date: 5/17/2004 2:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 50864
I guess I proved your point and we could all debate the Bible and other religious works The Quran would be another example and never totally prove or disprove anything just raise more questions and possibly all could learn something. The same can be said for any "religious work: all can be brought to question and something can be learned |
Date: 5/17/2004 2:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
The Jewish believe their Talmud to be 100% accurate. The Muslims believe the Quran to be 100% accurate. The Hindu's believe their (Can't spell the word or even pronounce it) is 100% accurate. All these billions of people of all these other God beliefs BELIEVE that THEIR God speaks to them, that their God appears to them; and they believe that THEIR god answers their prayers, and so on and on. So, how is one to REALLY determine what it is that one is to believe? Ye ole "faith" is what MOST people go by. And, for some of us, we either suspend belief altogether, until such time there is better evidence (something that makes sense), or reject them all.  |
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Date: 5/17/2004 3:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 12806
Actualy, Spirit Child, the writers of the New Testament were all Jewish. At least until they became Christian. Paul was a Roman, but he was still a jew. They wrote in Greek and Aramaic. I don't know where you got pagan and Palestinian from. There were no Palestinians at the time. There were, however, Philistines (who I believe are one and the same) but the Philistines were Arch Enemies of the Jews. Not likely that they would write a Christian work. Their god Dagon, would not allow it.... |
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Date: 5/17/2004 3:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 62682
That is a good question Spirit Child...I think I will think on this abit and then come back with my answer later..but for now, I dont need any proof that my faith is the right faith FOR ME..not to say that it is for anyone else. I personally believe that my God has more than enough shown proof to me so that I may believe. ~~~Humming Bird  |
Date: 5/17/2004 3:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 62367
Using the Bible as an example, there is some factual material, some codes of behavior, some poetry and a whole lot of symbolism. The debate in the Bible starts with what is symbolic and what is a "fact". You may be able to provide a superior logical arguement for your set of beliefs but you will not be able to convince many people who do not already believe the way you do.  |
Date: 5/17/2004 5:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 62249
Faith- beliveing in something without any proof. If you have this 'faith' in anything at all, you shouldn't need facts to validate it. - MC Bacon  |
Date: 5/17/2004 5:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Everybody is right SP! All Gods are the right Gods. It's all a matter of perspective. If you were a Muslim you would be right that Allah was the true God. If you were Christian, then Jehovah would be the right God. Same for God of the Jews and the Gods of the Hindu religions. Buddhists don't have a God belief. Deists believe that everything is God and they are right too. And, athiests believe there is no God... and what do you know? They're right too! So there you go.  |
Date: 5/19/2004 7:00:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
*I think when your heart is pure, in your faith, then removing the outward, visible signs of that faith, will not change your heart.* first, I want to say that I disagree with that statement. Anytime I try to hide that I am a Christian, then I begin to not act it. Why wouldn't you want to live your religion to the fullest anyway. That being said, I think that every belief comes on faith. Even people who believe in science (where most of the physical facts will come from) will say that as new discoveries are being made, science is constantly changing. From that, I would draw the conclusion that their beliefs MAY be able to prove false. I think that anytime you believe in something, it takes faith to believe it. So, I personally don't think its important to argue with people about their beliefs. I can make my life credible about what I believe and live as proof of what I believe, but in the end, its ALL about faith.  |
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Date: 5/19/2004 7:02:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
forgot to put, I think that faith comes from the credibility of the source (which yourself decide to trust in). |
Date: 5/19/2004 12:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
whjat if facts prooved jesus never existed (i know he did, i'm just using that as an example) some things you cannot reconcile with faith, if they are "proven" otherwise by science.  |
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Date: 5/19/2004 2:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Although not every god can be disproven, certain individual gods CAN be disproven through logic. Many people say they believe in a god because they "feel in their hearts" or they "feel God's presence" . Nobody can "disprove" what you "feel." I can only hope that they would realize a "feeling," no matter how strong, is NOT evidence of anything. There is far more evidence for the descent of humans from apes than for the existence of the Christian religion prior to 1300; FAR more EVIDENCE for evolution than the mythical Garden of Eden story...Records can be faked: DNA cannot be. Not only does your DNA indicate that you evolved from an apelike ancestor but it connects you to the entire web of evolution on the planet and shows connections to everything from rats to microbes. We live in a completely scientific driven world, but many choose supernatural explanations and deny or put down science. But one is entitled to their opinions and beliefs. Yes, that is true, And as long as the religious have not completely destroyed the constitution and replaced it with the Bible there will be freedom of religion in this country. If nothing is forced, then you won't have any flack from me or anyone. And, ultimently, as many have said, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS.....so IF we'll know the truth at death, then why worry about it now? Just live the best and fullest life you can, following the Golden Rule and believing or not believing as is your prerogative. And just what possible fault would any loving god find with that? |
Date: 5/20/2004 7:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 54111
Its not important for me to prove any facts about religion. I have FAITH in Jesus. I know what I feel and what he has done for me. For the most part the "FACTS" are important for others to disprove a religion.  |
Date: 5/20/2004 9:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
ONE MORE TIME, AND PERHAPS THIS WILL BE THE TIME YOU ACTUALLY ADDRESS THIS QUESTION: If when we are talking about believing in a "Creator" (by whatever name you want to hang on "the Creator") HOW CAN IT BE that one "religious" group was created in one way and another "relgious" group created in another????????? There CAN BE ONLY ONE WAY in which this world and its contents -- including human beings, was CREATED. Is that TOO HARD OF A CONCEPT for anybody to understand????? You know, LSG, the common thread running through all of YOUR POSTS seems, to me at least, to be one in which to FURTHER ANY DIVISION amongst believers rather than really point out the common ground: WE believe in a Creator, and that must mean that we ALL BELIEVE IN THE SAME "THING". Period. God Bless.  |
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Date: 5/20/2004 12:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
""I think if you are of a true, and pure "faith", then all the facts, will make no difference."" SP, you are both correct, and incorrect at the same time with that statement. FACTS will make no difference, if the believer refuses to listen; refuses to examine them, and think about them. This is what is known as: WILLFUL ignorance, and the fundamentalists even have a catch phrase for it. They call this willfull ignorance "being strong in the spirit". In REALITY, some worldviews , beliefs are more accurate than others, since they're based on actual evidence. An awful lot of stuff is being bandied about using the word: TRUTH. But what we have are PERSONAL truths.......and SUBJECTIVE truths. What most people toss out there is statements which have everything to do with PERSONAL truths, but, in reality, are not UNIVERSAL truths, and not subjective truths. What most of us BELIEVE to be truth, is based on OUR OWN perceptions, our own education, our own experiences, and often what we have been taught, and what is the popular within our OWN world view. It maybe very TRUE.....for YOU, but not at all what someone else perceives as truth. I've been spending an awful lot of time thinking about this; and am really trying to get behind or get at the ROOT of WHY and HOW many people think and believe and act they way they do, lately, with the situation the way it is in the Middle East. Now, please, don't anyone jump down my throat screaming "You calling me ignorant?"; as if to imply that one cannot be very intelligent but at the same time willfully ignorant. That does not mean that one is uneducated. It means one have rejected the education they have recieved. MANY reject this information about reality because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. It seems that they do not care if what they believe is real. We see this time and time again, when facts are presented when false statements of evolution are incorrect, or even have actual statements by REAL highly credentialed, qualified scientists about a particular subject; set the record straight ; only to have the "strong in the spirit" individual turn right around and repeat the same original incorrect statement. It seems to be an all out effort to keep oneself ignorant by shear force of will. I DO understand this......for it has always been than way with Christianity, and its teachings. If ANYTHING is thrown at the die-hard, faithful, (that doesn't fit their beliefs) it is deeply ingrained, inculcated, and supported; this idea that it must be rejected, and that it is just SATAN "working on you" and "of the world" and therefore, it MUST BE REJECTED. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 12:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
""There CAN BE ONLY ONE WAY in which this world and its contents -- including human beings, was CREATED.""<<<<<<<<THAT statement is an excellent example of what I am talking about. In HER mind; in HER worldview, that is HER truth, HER absolute truth, and nothing would ever ever change that. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 2:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Uuh, is there anyone out there reading this that would disagree with that statement that Thinker just quoted of mine? (That includes you, honey;) ROTFLMA OFF. God Bless. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 4:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
I don't get the humor; what you're laughing so hard about, Deb. Many people wouldn't agree with that statement, or go so far as to state "THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY..." Many people DON'T agree with it. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 4:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Too many people make the claim that since there is no proof that something is false, it therefore must be true. For Example: "Bigfoot must exist because no one has been able to prove that he doesn't." The problem with this argument is that they take a LACK of evidence as proof for another. A lack of evidence, however, proves NOTHING. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 4:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
When ANYONE claims to positively have the absolute truth about anything; claims that they have ALL the answers, and they need look no further....my advice is, do what I do: RUN AWAY IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION as fast as you can. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 5:53:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
DEB-you could not possibly know what I am attempting to do, or say, without discussing it with me directly. This post is not about me. Nor, is it about any "Agenda" I am attempting to push. For you to attempt to make it about me, or what I am trying to accomplish, in your opinion, shows that you cannot debate the topic, and therefore you are resorting to inuendo, and attempting to re-direct the topic (debate) at hand. I, for one, will not be falling for it. Sorry... |
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Date: 5/20/2004 6:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Claims which REASON rejects are manifestly false, and it is only by a renunciation of reason that they can be accepted as true. We are told to not question God's; and to not rely upon our own understanding. We are told that our eternal salvation is dependent upon FAITH. How the heck can one JUST believe something which makes no sense, and or is not understood? The absurdity of this requirement is expressed by the Poet Shelley: "This is the pivot upon which all religions turn; they all assume that it is in our power to believe or not to believe: whereas the mind can only believe that which it thinks is true. A human being can only be supposed accountable for those actions which are influenced by his will. But belief is utterly distinct from and unconnected with volition it is the apprehension of the agreement or disagreement of the ideas that compose any proposition. Belief is a passion or involuntary operation of the mind, and, like other passions, its intensity is precisely proportionate to the degree of excitement". |
Date: 5/20/2004 7:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
"If I can prove, by facts, that Paganism is older than Christianity, does that make Christianity any less valid?" ------------- Well, to get technical you can't, since "paganism" is not a religion but a description of ANYONE not of YOUR religion, but the point of the question - no, it wouldn't. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
"If I find the "missing link" who shares the DNA & Genome code(s) to prove Evolution, will that make the Bible any less valid?" - Yes, it would. It would matter to the moral values taught in the Bible, by striping them of the authority by which they are given. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
"If I can prove that the Bible is any less historically accurate, why should that matter?"---------- See the above answer. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
"I think if you are of a true, and pure "faith", then all the facts, will make no difference. I think when your heart is pure, in your faith, then removing the outward, visible signs of that faith, will not change your heart."---------- I question the definition of faith you give here. By your definition, I can believe with all my heart that I can stand in front of a moving bus and, despite the laws of physics and the witness of people who have seen the results of a human body being hit by a moving bus - despite the EVIDENCE - by faith alone I can pass through the bus unharmed. That is a defective definition of faith and not the one the Bible gives. The Biblical definition is trusting the evidence to mean what it says it means inspite of the incredulity of the claim. Its two different things. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
"If you are of strong faith, going to a school which is hostile to your way of thinking, will mean nothing, because belief is strong, when it is real." ------ No, and Nazi Germany is our example. Faith not only comes from trusting in the evidence, but acting upon that trust. Hitler knew and used the "big lie" to rob the German people of the will to act upon their trust of who and what the German people were. He replaced their traditions (the action of trust) with new traditions based upon a new set of evidence he coersed them into believing. This is why the SS soldiers in charge of the Concentration Camps were indoctriniated in the rites and religious practices of the Germanic pagan gods - because their Christian beliefs prevented them from killing Jewish women and children without pangs of guilt - even if they were the worst sort of "Christian" anti-Semite. "Women and Children" trumped "dirty Jew" in the minds and behavior of the SS, until the indoctrination was complete and their trust of Christianity - and the trust that their guilt meant something to their relationship to the Christian God - was removed. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
the defination of a Pagain is: non-Jewish, non-Muslim, and non-Christian. By that very defination, Pagaism is the oldest religion. To be more specific, Goddess Worship was the first religion. Despite the old "Gerald Garner started it in 19___", the fact remains Gerald Gardner does NOT speak for all Wiccans, Pagans, or Witches, and more than the Joseph Smiths, speak of the Christians of the 20th century. Get my point? Gardner was one TEENY percent of the Wiccan/Witch belief system. I am ranting on about this, because you & I have been down this road before, Tom. And, I am quite well-spoken, and I know my religious definations quite well. I may be a poor speller, but I am very well read. In both Secular, and Religious Materials, thank-you-very-much |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
Tom-my ex-Mother-In-Law is well into her 80's. She was in Germany until 1960. She WAS one of "Hitler's Youth". Her Father lost his feet in a Russian POW camp. Inga is a Catholic. She has always BEEN a Catholic. <Her Brothers being SS were good Catholics, too.> So, I have a bit of knowlege in that area too. Especially because MY German relatives came to the U.S, around 1900, and I STILL had family in Germany during the war. My point, unless you were there, or (like me) had access to people who lived it, quoting "facts" taught to you in Sunday School doesn't make it gospel. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
....Afetr all, we just KNOW those Germanic Pagan Gods had EVERYTHING to do with Hitler, and his evil behavior. And, of course, those SS officers just HAD to have been possesed by those Germanic Demons, because after all a GOOD Christian could have never soldieredat those camps, nor turned in their Jewish Neighbors to the Reinstag, right? |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:43:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
BTW-"soldieredat" is supposed to be soldiered. You cannot tell I am typing fast, can you? :D |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
"What am I saying? Facts, the lack thereof, and any belief that relys on knocking another's belief, to validate your own, is not a true belief." -------- No, because if someone believes something in error, and that something can effect that person in a fundamentally negative way there is a moral obligation to correct that error if possible. If I know that you are about to get hit by a bus, but because your religious beliefs state that prayer can only be heard by God when you are standing in the middle of the street, and I say nothing because I don't want to tear down your beliefs or offend you, then I am morally responsible for your death when that bus drags you underneath it for 500 feet. I knew your belief was in error, and I did nothing - I am your murderer. But if I speak up I am not tearing down your belief, but correcting an error that could cost you your life. What by your definition is "tearing down", by mine is "saving". |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
I see....so you are justified in your behavior, no matter how offensive, by "Moral Obligation"? Tom, the Muslim Terrorists are saying the same things that you are "I must save you from yourself. You have (no) soul". Followed by "I know what God (Allah) Wants. I follow His Will". |
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Date: 5/20/2004 7:48:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
I am sorry that you missed the very valid & intelligent points made in this discussion. It must be tough, seeing through a narrow-mindset. |
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Date: 5/20/2004 8:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
ummm....right now, my brother is on life support; expected to go anytime. I won't go into detail of how and why he has gotten to this stage, but let's just say that I kept warning him. He is a devout christian, and he don't think very highly of MY opinions. He says he leaves "everything up to God and the power of prayers". WHOSE is the better advice? He was following HIS "truth", as HE perceives it, and I was giving him advice based on the facts of the situation and a very strong hunch as to what would happen if he continued in his self destructive habits. |
Date: 5/20/2004 9:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I met a very dear lady some time back, about seven years ago and she impressed me with just BEING a real and caring person. She worked in sales. That store closed and I lost track of her until she began to work in another store where I shop. The woman has such an enormous and profound belief in God and I LISTEN to her. I don't argue points or "whose god is better" or "what if", this woman cares so much that she hugs me, holds my hand, and she is simply on of the most caring human beings I've ever met. I find myself drawn to her, her spirit, and her qualities. She is so honest and loving, and in my world, where I'm constantly faced with pain and suffering, and my share of rude people, this woman stands out. She has made an impact on me. I would go church with her if she asked, but she won't, she says, "your spirit is proof that you don't need a church", you are already are someone who cares about others enough to make a difference. I had never told her what I do in life. But I swear that lady and I have some "connection" that I would never break, I would never hurt her intentionly. She has her own "proof" and why would I, or how could I, ever want to deny her by insisting that "my belief" or lack of, is right. Why would I and how could I ask for anyone so caring and so loving, given the nature of the world today, to be any different or believe any differently. Her name is Denise, and she is a really special person. I think she has her own "misson", like everyone.  |
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Date: 5/20/2004 10:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
oh, Brenda-she sounds like a lovely person :) <She sounds like our own Linda B. here at USM.> I think there is a danger in the religious labeling. A person's own sweet spirit will shine through, in all that they say, and do. Thank you for sharing that story with us. God Bless the Denises on this world....:) |
Date: 5/21/2004 12:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 37900
Spirit Child, this is excellent! As I understand the matter now, a belief without facts will not have credibility or appeal. I may fervently believe the earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese or that there is a Santa Claus. Since there are no facts to support these beliefs, they are wrong. My sincerity and fervency adds no measure of legitimacy to the matter; despite all my faith and enthusiasm, my beliefs in this case are incorrect. Beliefs with supporting facts endure and are stronger with more information. Why is it important that the Bible be 100% accurate? First, it claims to be inspired by a God that is described as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Second, it claims infallibility for itself. Third, it describes itself as truth and its central theme as the only way to God. Such claims are either true or false. If the statements of the Bible are false, it should be categorically rejected as religious propaganda; if they are true, humans have a duty to follow them. If they are true, only one God is the true God.  |
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Date: 5/21/2004 9:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
If you disagree with the statement then let's see the argument. Where are the many who disagree with such "absolute" logic? Once again I ask, how could it possibly be that this world was created in one way, method, procession of events, etc., for Group A and a totally different way for Group B and yet another way for Group C and so on and so forth? If you disagree with my statment, then please answer that. As far as your "agenda" goes, LSG, and my points of this debate, I have yet to see you answer any one of my questions on any one of your posts. Do I ask too hard of questions? Your statement in your comment, "I think there is a danger in the religious labeling" goes to what point in your original debate? That the Bible (mentioned how many times up there) should not be the basis of anyone's beliefs and, thereby, religion? I have had enough conversations with Tom to know that his view of the Bible is not the "mainstream Christian" teachings that all the people that ran away from Christian religions on this site were apparently taught. I have conversed with many fellow-Christians on this site who don't hold the view that "Christian religions'" teachings of the Bible are altogether correct. That is why I pointed out the way you accentuate differences in your post -- differences between Christians and everyone else -- rather than seek any sort of common ground. And believe me, I would be delighted to see a post put up by you that doesn't come down to you trying to make something of people's comments based on who those people are rather than what the comments actually say:) God Bless. |
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Date: 5/21/2004 9:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
"the defination of a Pagain is: non-Jewish, non-Muslim, and non-Christian." ----------- This is so fundamentally wrong a definition as can be, SC. If this were true, then why did the Romans concider Jews as Pagans? Why did Justin Martyr die accused of being an atheist pagan? (While the ancient definition of atheist HAS changed, from someone who doesn't believe in all of the gods but only a few, to one who believes in none at all, the definition of pagan has stayed the same - someone who worships a god - any god - you yourself does not recognize as a valid god. This isn't even up for debate, SC! Buddhists in Sri Lanka are killing "Pagan" Christians today. In India, the RJP political party has declared Christians as "outside pagan forces" - IN INDIA! |
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Date: 5/21/2004 9:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
"Gardner was one TEENY percent of the Wiccan/Witch belief system. I am ranting on about this, because you & I have been down this road before, Tom." ---------- Where did I once mention Gardner in this post? Are you reading the same one I am, or was this a mispost and you got me confused with someone else. If that is the case, thats fine, but I never mentioned Gardner, hun. |
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Date: 5/21/2004 9:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
"....Afetr all, we just KNOW those Germanic Pagan Gods had EVERYTHING to do with Hitler, and his evil behavior." ---------- Don't put words in people's mouths, dear - its beneath you. If you have a problem with the facts as I have stated them, take it up with the publishers of Time-Life books, and their series on the SS. Or with the SS officers they interviewed for the books. |
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Date: 5/21/2004 9:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
"I see....so you are justified in your behavior, no matter how offensive, by "Moral Obligation"? Tom, the Muslim Terrorists are saying the same things that you are "I must save you from yourself. You have (no) soul". --------- Maybe yo are not reading the same thing I am - there is a real difference between what the Muslim terrorists have done and what we are talking about. If you cannot see the difference... |
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Date: 5/21/2004 9:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
" I am sorry that you missed the very valid & intelligent points made in this discussion. It must be tough, seeing through a narrow-mindset." ----- When you make a valid point I'll acknowledge it. You haven't. Until then leave the personal attacks out of our conversations. YOU know better. |
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Date: 5/21/2004 3:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
PB Buddhists killing Christians? Where on earth did you hear that? Buddhists, literally, won't hurt a fly. They are true pacifists. Dear me! |
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Date: 5/21/2004 5:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
There are Buddhists in Sri Lanka killing Christians. Don't take my word for it - check out some of the major news sites (CNN, Fox, WND) and search for the stories. |
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Date: 5/21/2004 6:11:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
correction: the year was 1985. My bad....:) |
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Date: 5/21/2004 6:11:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
I own the Time-Life books on WWll. My Mother worked for Scott Forseman & Company (the Dick & Jane School Books), their World Headquarters, and SF was bought by Time-Life in 1885. (So anything published by those companies are part of my private library.) And, as for my sources for activity in Germany during WWll? Not books, my friend, which are subject at best, by people who were actually IN Germany during that time. Now, I see a real pattern with you, Tom. You will come into a debate in which you disagree with the Author, and if the discussion does not go well for you, you attack the credibility of either 1) the post's Author OR 2) the Author's sources. I will further point out, that you have attempted to claim the Germanic Pagan teachings were used to help the good German people overcome their guilt in their dealing(s) with the Jews (and other enemies). There are two seperate ironies in that statement. First of all, the Germanic Pagan Gods followed the Law Of Three. Therefore, whatever you sent out, is returned to you in this life, or the Afterlife, Threefold. The other irony? Lets look at our Soliders RIGHT NOW in Iraq, involved in the Iraqi Prison Scandel(s). Now, by your own reasoning, unless they are being feed Pagan God(s), these good Men, and Women, are emulating Nazi behavior, in their treatment of the Iraqi Prisoners. Before you scream "Not six(6) million Jews worth", remember, the war is still young. |
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Date: 5/21/2004 6:13:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
-->When you make a valid point I'll acknowledge it. You haven't<----I see, then why do you feel the need to come to my debates & posts, and attempt to discredit me? Perhaps my points are a bit more valid than you care to admit? |
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Date: 5/21/2004 6:20:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
-->Where did I once mention Gardner in this post? <---thought I would beat you to the punch this time. In the past, in my personal dealings with you, YOU TOM, you have attempted to invalidate the Witch/Wiccan faith with the old tired argument that this is a "new" religion, written by one man. Again, a familiar pattern sets in. The re-direct, the taking one tiny portion of an entire picture, and attempting to break it down, the "divide-and-conquor" technique. Also, I see a bit of the ol' tag-team behavior here too, but a few familiar faces are either unable, or unwilling to join in. Tom, I will make this very simple, if you cannot stick to the topic at hand, as written, without attacking the Authors sources, and attempting either snide personal attacks (I give you credit, you have gotten much more sly in your deliverence of personal attacks), than do not reply here, or anywhere else we desire a sincere dialog without the garbage. |
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Date: 5/21/2004 6:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
And, Koolaid, I MUST be o.k. for Christian's to do their share of killing since BUDDISTS are killing Christinas!! Don't you get that? Oh, wait, we were talking about "Facts Do Not A Belief Make", so now I am thinking, someone attempted to turn the focus of our discussion with an "Oh, yeah....well so-and-so is doing this!". How very Kindergarden. My two-year old Grandson will use this one to avoid a spanking. Not one of the better debating skills, eh? |
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Date: 5/21/2004 6:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
BTW-the word above is: Christians. |
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Date: 5/22/2004 6:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
CNN, FOX you still believe those 'news' shows PB? Well that explains it! |
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Date: 5/22/2004 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
"My Mother worked for Scott Forseman & Company (the Dick & Jane School Books), their World Headquarters, and SF was bought by Time-Life in 1885."-------------------- Which means you have an in a Time-Life to make your complaint about the accuracy of the information on the SS found in their books. If they print a retraction let me know. |
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Date: 5/22/2004 9:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
"Now, I see a real pattern with you, Tom. You will come into a debate in which you disagree with the Author, and if the discussion does not go well for you, you attack the credibility of either 1) the post's Author OR 2) the Author's sources."------------------ 1. The discussion did not "go bad" for me; I pointed out what I found to be in error and backed up what I said with data - that's all, nothing else. 2. Disagreeing with what is posted and offering counterpoint data or opinion as arguement is not "attacking" anything or anyone. Its called debate. 3. "... you attack the credibility of either 1) the post's Author..." AND "I am sorry that you missed the very valid & intelligent points made in this discussion. It must be tough, seeing through a narrow-mindset." are PERSONAL attacks by YOU. I have not said anything that can be construed as a personal attack. A copy of this site has been saved to my harddrive so that I may discuss with George and Ginger why his admins violate the very rules they are asked to enforce. |
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Date: 5/22/2004 9:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
Now, in an attempt to get back to debating the SUBJECT: "I will further point out, that you have attempted to claim the Germanic Pagan teachings were used to help the good German people overcome their guilt in their dealing(s) with the Jews (and other enemies)." ------------ Yes, and Time-Life details why very clearly - Guilt, an emotion common to the Christian psyche, is not present in the ancient Germanic pagan religions. Lutheran Christians in the SS had no problems killing male Jews because they could rationalize men as being a threat to the Fatherland. But women and young children were a different story; how is a two year old Jewish child going to be a threat to the Reich? The SS officers and men were rebelling against orders, so the decision was made to indoctrinate them in a way TO REMOVE GUILT FROM THEIR PSYCHOLOGICAL MAKEUP. Since the Ancient German religions had no concept of guilt in their worship patterns, and they promoted a Germanic superiority and identity, they were the logical choice to use for that purpose. If you wish to say that Hitler also manipulated those religions for his purpose, you would not get an arguement out of me. |
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Date: 5/22/2004 9:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
Tom (Papa Bryant)-do not bother to reply on my posts any further. I find you insulting, and childish. Grow-up, and let the adults speak for a while, o.k.? |
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Date: 5/22/2004 9:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
""I was watching a very disturbing program on television last night about the holocaust, and the events leading to murder of six million men women and children. In Germany, as well as all German occupied countries, the Nazis told the civilian population they had full immunity to do whatever harm they could inflict on the Jews. To see old defenseless men and women being beaten up and murdered was extremely hard to watch. Christianity that is supposed to teach love did not dissuade Christians from beating and killing their former neighbors. I wonder what Christians learn in their churches. The butchery of Jews was the worst, if there can be a worst, in Catholic and Lutheran countries (I think we all know what the god man Luther felt about Jews). There was one thousand years of hate mongering from the pulpits of every church in every country. When you tell a Christian about the holocaust and the perpetrators were Christians they either tune you out with no response or they will rationalize it away by saying those who did those horrible things were not true Christians. I’m glad to hear this. Now I know there are millions of Christians through out the world who are really not 'true' Christians"". Newton Joseph, Ph.D. |
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Date: 5/22/2004 9:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
""Those Christian SS men in Hitler's Army would put the Marquis De Sade to shame. The cruelty perpetrated by these sub-species of humans as shown on television using German movie footage by a German camera man is too painful to watch, all those Fascists in Germany, Poland, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Yugoslavia, France, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Hungry, and Austria who murdered infants, and children as the mothers looked on helpless. Given permission by the church, so if you murder a Jew it would not count for murder. Why is it that these Christian men who were fathers, brothers and adults children of parents able to carry out this barbarism? Remission from any taint of sin. (Indulgence.) In order for Jews to be recognized for abuse, they had to wear a Star of David on their clothing. Where did the Germans get this idea? From the Catholic Church. Was there one Catholic Nazi who was excommunicated by the church for murder? Just one?"" Newton Joseph, Ph.D. |
Date: 5/22/2004 10:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 998
Is it possible for the commentors on this site to dail it back a notch. We can help others to understand our position on an issue without force it down their throat.  |
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Date: 5/22/2004 10:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
o.k., Ginger, we can do that. :) |
Date: 5/22/2004 11:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 47865
Considering the fact that the SS hated Christianity only marginally less than they hated the Jews, and that Himmler and Hitler were long planning the day they could safely turn on the Christian faith, Thinkers last post seems a tad wide of the mark.  |
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Date: 5/22/2004 11:54:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
sorry, ASH, your wrong.... |
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Date: 5/23/2004 ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
BTW-this post is not about the SS, or their Religion. Please re-read the post as written, and coment upon the topic at hand, o.k.? This is not "attack-other-repliers" night. Besides making a broad statement about how Catherine is "wrong" (without any verification), does not, in fact, make her wrong. Just saying it, don't make it so......:) |
Date: 5/23/2004 6:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 18527
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html  |
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Date: 5/23/2004 10:43:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
Kethria-that is an interesting link, but again, this post is not about Hitler, the SS, or their religious bend. This---->Why is it important to either prove, or dis-prove the facts in your Holy Book, and even if your Holy Book WAS 100% accurate, how does that prove YOUR God(dess), is the right One? <---Is the debate. Thank you for your imput. |
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Date: 5/23/2004 10:46:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
Dang! Kethria, that really was an awsome link! I agree with the basic idea behind it "Does it really matter whether Hitler & His men were Christians, or Athiest?" |
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Date: 5/23/2004 10:57:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
yhe link that Kethria provided said everything, in effect, that I was trying to say in this post...:) |
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Date: 5/23/2004 10:58:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 15070
the link that Kethria provided said everything, in effect, that I was trying to say in this post...:) |
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Date: 5/24/2004 4:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 47865
Spirit Child, please explain why I'm wrong. |
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Date: 5/24/2004 4:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 47865
Spirit Child, I wasn't criticising your post as such, I was having a go at Thinkers claim that the SS were active Christians, nominally yes, I'd imagine most if not all came from solid Christian backgrounds, because somehow I find it hard to believe that active paganism was very widespread in either Wilhemine of Wiemar Germany. The SS made a great thing of rejecting Bourgeois (read Christian ) morality, so, why am I wrong? |
Date: 5/26/2004 12:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
Your mind is a powerful tool. Believing in something doesn't mean it exists. We need to teach everyone how to let go of the crutches they use.  |
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Date: 5/26/2004 2:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
When your mind is in concert with your physical experiences and feelings (heart, soul), what do you teach then? How to let go of reality in favor of a wheelchair? God Bless. |
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Date: 5/26/2004 8:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Well said Gallytuck |
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Date: 5/26/2004 8:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Gallytuck sais, "the mind is a powerful tool", and it is. We can "believe" in anything, being human though we must realize that sometimes our beliefs DO become a CRUTCH as he said to further OUR OWN belief. It simply dosn't matter what we believe in, we can argue religion till "the cows come home" and probably some will, but I find ir far more fascinating delving into Humanity, all religions, and people without have good and bad, so where does that come? When one has no God belief and yet has an enormous conscience, or when one does have a God belief and lacks humanity to others? What is the denominating factor that brings enough hate that someone actually hates someone because they think a different way? Believe in something different? My brother carries his Bible everwhere, he BELIEVES. would I argue or kill him because of that? He is dying anyway, so should I TRY to take away any comfort found, not likely. But I would fight against any who would use their own religion or belief to bring harm, to hurt my children or grandchildren, I am very open minded and see ALL as they are. I would fight and I WOULD kill to simply protect my own believe EXACTLY as they to, for the sake of humanity. I could care less if my neighbor worships his potty, or what God, but he better be NICE! |
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Date: 5/26/2004 8:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Someone struck a nerve and when that happens, my fingers go crazy. Sorry about the typos. Bottom line, a fanatic is a threat... read the definition for fanatic. |
Date: 6/6/2004 3:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 15319
"Anytime I try to hide that I am a Christian, then I begin to not act it." If you were a real Christian you wouldn't be trying to hide it. Second, if you cannot act Christian without outwardly displaying it, then you are NOT Christian. I can act like a Pagan without walking around covered in Pentacles and babbling about the Goddess.  |
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