Date: 11/26/2004 1:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 62893
Pretty heavy stuff. I can see how killing an animal for fun can lead to killing humans. Thanks for the post. Great info.Misty  |
Date: 11/26/2004 6:07:00 AM
From Authorid: 37101
The slippery slope argument. Where one things lead to another, leads to another, leads to another. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the slippery slope argument in this argument is a crock. People who kill animals and then go on to kill humans are rare exceptions to the ways most people act. How many people hunt? And how many serial killers are out there? This is the same as implying that violent television makes for violent kids. It may IN SOME CASES but the grand majority of the time, it will do nothing. -  |
Date: 11/26/2004 6:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 28190
Wow, I have heard this before but not in such detail. I cant fathom hurting an animal or person ever, especially intentionally. I do have to agree with SC though, that I dont think all cases lead to being a serial killer... We right now have someone going around killing dogs in the next city from us. It has made the papers every time they find another one, and that I think in some morbid way probably encourages the behavior since they arent actively looking for the person doing it ... Interesting post though *huge hugs*  |
Date: 11/26/2004 7:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Sounds like a load of crap to me. My father never cared for cats. In fact, as a kid, he tied two of their tails together, and threw them over the clothesline. Was he any of what his report states? No, he was a very loving husband and father. Ironically, before he died of cancer, my folks had a cat that he liked very much. In the evenings, it slept on the back of his chair laying against the back of his neck.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 7:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 47218
smooth criminal, she's talking about cruelty towards animals, not hunting. And it's not that killing animals leads people to killing people, it's that the pattern of behavior that they exhibit towards animals is indicative of how they will behave towards people. I would agree-- a psychopath, who is missing that thing in their head that allows them to feel empathy for others, is likely to feel less inhibited than others about causing suffering to an animal just as they are less inhibited towards causing suffering to a human. And then, it's easier to start on animals because they aren't as protected as people and they can't tell anyone about what you're doing to them.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
In a way I agree with Smooth, Here is the problem. Lets say 90% of serial killers are animal abusers, how mnay animal abusers turn out to be serial killers or rapists?......2%?.....3%?...a very very low number...  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
And actually Mollcat you say to Smooth its not "hunting or the Killing its the cruelty towards animals"....some of the quotes given do not make what you just said plain  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
like the following "Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life of any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human lives,"
or"Murderers...very often start out by killing and torturing animals as kids"  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:16:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
I agree in a sense I do not think all people who are cruel to animals are going to end up serial killers or rapists but I do be;ieve alot of serial killers and rapists are cruel to animals but the numbers are so low its just not plausible to say that the two can be connected when looking at it from the oppiste viewpoint. I agree with Smooth and 2spirit, load of crap..  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
And here is the story you are not telling. you list serial killers who were cruel to animals...well i had a cousin who was a serial killer, killed I dont know how many people, Bruce Davis, anyway...as far as I know, he was not cruel to animal and there were many more murderers and rapists that were not probably 50-50 so how does that work?  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
So many quotes out of context, you had to have gotten this from some animal website. Many abusers actually treat their animals better than their children and spouses and like Two Spirit who gave an example of his father, many abuse animals but never humans, it's not a one label fits all. A high percentage of serial killers do have in common that they began killing animals at a young age but a high percentage of them also have frontal lobe injuries and share many other behaviors. Abuse towards animals alone especially varying upon the degree of abuse is not indicative that a child will grow up to be a serial murderer, rapist, or abuser.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 18527
In vet school we had a case of a kid who was 10 who took a dog and wound barbed wire around his sex organs. We had to do resconstructive surgery. The kid had also drowned kittens. I told the parents they needed to get him help or he would be doing it to people.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 40145
i dont agree with you. my brother in law, he is kind of mean and strict on his heeler cross he would do real mean things to her to make her to stay by him etc etc but it worked really she would stay by him and commands such as like that his father does the same thing.. they are really nice people honestly. no i hated it what they do but i looked at his dog, she seems very happy dog, she does what he tells her to do and she is still happy with anyone. i guess they are just tough and strict on dogs to keep them in line. i dont really agree with what you say about abusers turning into monsters.. because my brother in law and his dad is not. i wanted to tell the how i think about them being mean..  |
Date: 11/26/2004 11:05:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
I totally agree with most of you. I'm definitly not saying that all or even most animal abusers will turn out this way, But most people who torture animals, decapitate them, or light them on fire has some SERIOUS mental issues that need to be taken care of or else it could esculate into Human Abuse. I'm definitly not talking about Hunters (although they suck too). But people who do these horrific things to animals should not just get a slap on the wrist (which is what most often happens) Because then they will do it again and again and gradually work up to hurting people. Of course there not all going to become serial killers. Pretty much every famous serial killer has tortured animals as a child. I had the complete listing on another post but it got deleted because it was too graphic. And I did NOT get this off of an animal site, I got if off a some psychologists site. the last part though i did get off an animal rights site. This is pretty well known you can just type animal abuse serial killer into your search engine and a million different sites will pop up  |
Date: 11/26/2004 11:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 47218
there are a good number of studies out there that support a correlation between animal abuse and violent behavior in general. Here's one: http://www.ncjrs.org/html/ojjdp/jjbul2001_9_2/page5.html I think a couple things need to be made clear: first of all, I believe the link normally occurs with a pattern of animal abuse, not isolated incidents, secondly, the studies don't prove that every person who abuses an animal is going to act out in other violent ways or that every person that acts in violent ways is an animal abuser-- just that there is a general pattern that indicates a link.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 11:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 47218
oh yes, the American Psychiatric Association supports this theory.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 11:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 47218
I for one can say that if, God forbid, I found out my child who was wrapping barbed wire around dogs' genitals and drowning kittens, that I'd send the kid for a pscyh evaluation straight off. Is anyone really going to argue with this?  |
Date: 11/26/2004 1:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
I see that you love animals and are trying to make people more aware of animal cruelty, and like the rest I dont agree with some of the things said here. But I do applaude you for trying. The thing is I think people that hurt animals just to be cruel are sick. LOL, But lots of times kids do junk when they are young that makes them just sick to think of it later. Sometimes its the parents fault for giving the kid a animal when they are really too young to care for it. Myself for instance, when my grandkids were little, I gave all four of them a rabbit for easter. The two littles ones I shouldn't have as they were just too dang little. Well shelby threw hers against the wall to see it the fur would stick . Needless to say, little rabbit bite the dust. And cody which is four months younger then shelby I dont even KNOW what he did, but I asked him where his rabbit was. He couldn't say sleeping, thats how little he was, he said LEEPING, in the box. I said does your rabbit ever wake up? he says, No, been leeping for a long time. I don't think that all that abuse animals are going to be killers, rapist, or abusers, however I do know that lots that have been charged with these things were abusers of animals. I'm willing to bet that 99 percent of them abused animals in horrrible ways that we cant even think about.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 3:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 62915
I think there is a difference between abusing animals for fun and abusing animals because they were too young or they didn't want the pet. Abusing an animal for fun is about control. Raping and serial killing is about control. So I can see why the link would be there. I think they need to define what they mean by animal abuse. Ghost-Chick  |
Date: 11/26/2004 3:18:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
Thank you mollycat, its good to know that people understand what i'm trying to say.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 3:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 13119
Six Gun your relative was a serial killer bent on revenge, he was not a psychopath and there in lies the difference. He didn't torture animals when he was younger but he was raped at age 13, I think that that is a totally different type of killer. I agree that agression towards animals is a prime indicator that something is wrong with the child. If they escalate in their behaviour against animals (not like TS's dad, who did something then stopped) then I feel that the next logical step is to abuse humans.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 7:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
Without seeing the AuthorID, I knew who wrote this post, how was I able to tell. I have to agree with SmootCriminal.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 9:59:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
well drkptrs you already made it pretty clear in other post that you find animal abuse amusing and support the torture of animals. So i'm not suprised that this post probably applies to you. And thats really sad that you have to think like that and live such a dark life.  |
Date: 11/26/2004 10:00:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
And I'm glad you knew it was Me. Puts a smile on my face that I am known, by someone, as the person who writes animal rights posts.  |
Date: 11/27/2004 3:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
A lot of times, animal abuse as a child is done on a dare, such as the case with my dad and the cats. Other times it is done because kids here farfetched stories of things their parents did as kids, throwing firecrackers or Alka Selzer to seagulls, tieing two cats together or putting two of them in a burlap bag, tarring a dog's rear end, and so on. The fact with my dad is that he loved animals very much, although as I said, he never cared much for cats. Saying that a person who abuses people as an adult probably has a history of abusing animals as a child is one thing. Saying those who abuse animals as a child will grow up to abuse adults is a whole different story. As for your comment on hunters (they suck too), mind you that there are quite a few hunters on here, myself included. Some hunters are indeed somewhat cruel, taking shots that will not kill but only injure. A lot of us though are of the old school, one shot, one kill, and make sure we have that one clean shot that will bring our game down instantly. One thing that I find amusing is that most animal rights advocates live in the cities and suburbs, and never really see animals out in nature. I doubt if many have ever woken up in the middle of the night to find a possum in the middle of the kitchen, ready to fight you for the rights to your garbage can. They haven't had to face down a bobcat or coyote that was trying to get into a chicken coop, or into the midle of a herd of cattle where several young calves were. They haven't walked out to their gardens or fields to see crops ruined by wild animals during the night. I've seen all these. I have set poison bait to get at coyotes who were getting into our melon crop at night as it ripened. I have also shot my share of coyotes, armadillos, possums, and numerous other varmints. They are called varmints for a reason. City slickers wouldn't understand that though.  |
Date: 11/27/2004 7:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 47218
are you kidding? The city where I currently live is running amuck with possums-- nasty, smelly little beasts. And in one of my previous towns I had a few run-ins with bears and quite a few with coyotes-- I was walking down the street one day and there was a coyote just trotting along up the other side. We lost many cats to them. And then there's bats and deer and raccoons...one of my coworkers had a raccoon take residence in their attic and it was very reluctant to leave. Trust me, you don't have to live in the country to have contact with wild beasts.  |
Date: 11/27/2004 9:31:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
Yes i have to aggree with mollycat, I have tons of friends in the country who are peta members. That doesn't have anything to do with it, It has to do with how much compassion people have in there hearts for others less fortunate. I have also had many encounters with the animals you stated. My father is An Avid Hunter, My whole life I have been raised as a country kid, I grew up fishing, my dad teaching me how to handle guns and bowing arrows so I could hunt when I turned 12. In my house I have Elk Heads, Deers heads & Antlers, and Squarrials mounted on the walls. My whole family is from the country, ALL of my friends live in the country. I am Native American so it is my Culture to Hunt, Eat deer jerky, wear leather and deer skin accessories. I live in a small city surrounded by like 400 miles of country in all directions. So I Know first hand how all of that goes. My dad Hunts by the rules, as you say, one shot one kill. I'm oppose to it because I find it unneccessary for many reasons. My dad spent $6,000 to go kill an Elk in Canada. 2. We don't need the food to survive (which is why the indians did it). So I know all about the hunting lifestyle, and living in the country, That is Why I became a Vegan. I wanted to try to avoid harming anymore animals as much as possible, and try to make there sad miserable lives a little better. I always felt bad because so little people care about them.  |
Date: 11/27/2004 9:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
And two-spirit, this post was not about kids who torture animals on a dare (even though i suggest they should get at least get checked out just to make sure)This post was how All major serial killers abused animals as a child. So children who abuse and torture animals should be checked out by a psychologists because children & young adults who can do such cowardly things do a helpless creature can not possible be right in the head. I know ALOT of people who have tortured animals and every single one of them was clearly disturbed or had deep psychological problems.  |
Date: 11/28/2004 4:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
You say there are trophies hanging on your walls from hunting. That is what I despise about hunters, those who hunt for trophies. I always hunted as another source of food, never trophies. You will find no heads on my walls. You will not find that big catch hanging there.  |
Date: 11/28/2004 11:38:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
That is really great two-spirit. That is the problem I've always had with hunting. Its unneccesary. My dad hunts "for food" even though we have PLENTY of Food in the fridge. I wouldn't be as oppose to it if that is how he got his meat. But no. He goes and gets tons of meat at the store AND kills animals for it. If killing deers was how someone got there food without getting it at the store also, then I couldn't really be oppose to it. Its like raising and killing your own cows for meat, because theres usually no torture there (unless your in the back beating them and stuff). Its not the eating of meat i'm oppose to, Its the unneccessary suffering and torture.  |
Date: 11/29/2004 5:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
Hunting IS needed, unless you want to control deer populations by artificial means. Cave men hunted, Indians hunted, ethical hunters still hunt for good natural food. And the animals don't suffer, Why can't you get that?  |
Date: 11/29/2004 8:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
You have said you support PETA. Are you aware that while supporting PETA that you support domestic terrorism? Do you really know that PETA has supported the two groups considered to be the largest threat to domestic terrorism, both ALF and ELF, and that they have contributed an enormous amount of money to both groups? Are you aware that PETA uses more of it's donations to support illicit activites than it does to save animals? I think I will do a post showing you the truth about PETA, with documentation of their illegal activities, and their support of terrorism.  |
Date: 11/29/2004 6:29:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
Well for one Peta and Elf and Alf are three Totally different organizations. And Alf is not "Terrorism". Alf Breaks into Labs and frees animals, destroys equipment. They save lives. Saving lives is WAY more important than money. Thats what they get for torturing animals. Do you know what happens to those animals in those labs? The majority of them get the Draze Test. Thats when they take houshold products like detergent and cologne and inject it into animals eyes with a suringe. Then they just let the infection progress and see what happens. I did a research paper on animal testing when i was in high skool (before I was a member of Peta) So knowing what Goes on in those labs I'm GLAD my money goes to support ALF and Peta.  |
Date: 11/29/2004 6:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Then you gladly support terrorism, and deserve the same judgement as any terrorist would get.  |
Date: 11/30/2004 9:12:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
I support Life, Living, breathing. Not death and suffering. I'm glad you support murder and torture. It doesn't matter what anyone judges me as, or if they label me a "terrorist". I know what I'm doing is right in Gods eyes and that is ALL I care about. My name Danielle means "Only God can Judge Me" So...........  |
Date: 11/30/2004 9:12:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
I don't really care how people who kill others think of me.  |
Date: 11/30/2004 9:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
i didn't actually read it all as i've read it in depth before - but it is a sorry thing to abuse an animal. i would like to see all animal abusers tortured to death . (seriously). as to why it is a sign of possible serial killers, i think it speaks to their sadistic nature, the derivation of pleasure from pain of a living thing, and /or the pleasure of causing it death. i read only a couple of replies, and though i wouldn't hunt myself i don't think it is anywhere in the realm of abusing animals (unless you skinned them alive or something 8-(.  |
Date: 11/30/2004 3:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 5229
I'm against animal cruelty and I come from a family of hunters - which I completely SUPPORT. We eat what we kill and we respect what we kill, it is not cruel they die quickly and if we didnt hunt, how many of them would starve and die a slow painful death?  |
Date: 12/2/2004 3:04:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
I agree with you heather and goat-on-a-rope.  |
Date: 12/2/2004 3:07:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62928
I under no circumstances am talking about hunting in this post. This post was about people who Torture animals. Although I NEVER Support or agree with hunting. It is not very painful for the animal, i think it is cruel because we Just END there life, and take them away from what ever family they had. However I can't be against it if the food is needed for survival. Like if you lived in the Super Country where there were no alternatives (I live in the city so there are tons of supermarkets that sell vegan food) So I don't have to go kill animals for survival  |