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Death is certain but the Bible speaks about untimely death!

  Author:  61933  Category:(Religious) Created:(8/6/2009 9:23:00 AM)
This post has been Viewed (3213 times)

Make a personal reflection about this.....
very interesting, read until the end.....
 It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7):
 

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked:
for whatsoever a man sow, that shall
he also reap.."


Here are some men and women who mocked God :



John Lennon (Singer):
Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said:
'Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue about that.. I am certain Jesus
was ok, but his subjects were too simple, today we are more famous than Him' (1966).

Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.

 

Tancredo Neves (President of Brazil):
During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from
Presidency.

Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died.



Cazuza (Brazilian composer, singer and poet):

During A show in Canecio ( Rio de Janeiro ),  while smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air
and said:'God, that's for you.'

He died at the age of 32 of LUNG CANCER in a horrible manner.



The man who built the Titanic
After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be.
With an ironic tone he said:  'Not even God can sink it'

The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic



Marilyn Monroe (Actress)
She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show.
He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her.
After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said: "I don't need your Jesus'.

A week later, she was found dead in her apartment



Bon Scott (Singer)
The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang:
"Don't stop me; I'm going down all the way, down the highway to hell'.

On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own vomit.


Campinas (IN 2005)
In Campinas , Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a friend.....
The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the drunkenness of her friends
and she said to the daughter holding her hand, who was already seated in the car: 'My Daughter,
Go With God And May He Protect You.'

She responded: 'Only If He (God) Travels In The Trunk, Cause Inside Here.....It's Already Full '

Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died,
the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact.
The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained intact. To their surprise, inside the
trunk was a crate of eggs, none was broken




Christine Hewitt (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer)
Said the Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written.

In June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor vehicle.




 

Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other name
that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus.

Many have died, but only Jesus died and rose again, and he is still alive.



PS:
If it was a
joke, you would have sent it to everyone.
So are you going to
have courage to send this?.


I have done my part, Jesus said 'If you are embarrassed about me,
I will also be embarrassed about you before my father.'

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Show all stories by   Author:  61933 ( Click here )

Halloween is Right around the corner.. .







 
Replies:      
Date: 8/6/2009 9:29:00 AM  From Authorid: 63026    wow the one about the trunk was spooky...

These were intersting thanks for sharing
  
Date: 8/6/2009 9:57:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    Wow, this post makes God sound like a childish jerk. Hope he doesn't come and murder me for saying that!  
Date: 8/6/2009 10:04:00 AM  From Authorid: 64356    The lord showed those sonofaguns.  
Date: 8/6/2009 10:10:00 AM  From Authorid: 30093    Which god was this again?  
Date: 8/6/2009 10:13:00 AM  From Authorid: 44960    ^^^ Must be that loving god!! ^^^ *Spirit*  
Date: 8/6/2009 10:34:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61933    wow people are reading way more into this then what there is o.O oh well

sorry if you don't understand fully what this is actually trying to portray, and not the "fear god" statement either *shrugs* o well {{hugs}}
  
Date: 8/6/2009 10:50:00 AM  From Authorid: 35720    Yes, people die.. sometimes in horrible ways. Doesn't really matter if they denounced god or praised him, it still happens.  
Date: 8/6/2009 10:52:00 AM  From Authorid: 35720    Dark Pheonix, I know. Isn't it funny how "gods" are supposed to be perfect beings, yet the christian god is so jealous and vengeful, both very unbecoming characteristic flaws?  
Date: 8/6/2009 1:54:00 PM  From Authorid: 7710    Rika, how is the Christian God jealous and vengeful? That's only how society likes to portray him
All Christian faiths teach that God is loving and merciful.

Very interesting post, FrostyAngel....
  
Date: 8/6/2009 2:08:00 PM  From Authorid: 64365    Galations 6 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I know a lot of people who have said worse things than what you mentioned in your post, and are still alive and kicking... I don't want to think of God as the Being I ran away from as a child...the Hateful one that was just waiting for me or someone to get out of line so He could smush them.

I just don't think that what these people have said had anything to do with their untimely demise...since we are all supposed to be given chances to come to Him...

And, as far as emails like that...no I would never send one. I can't stand forwarded emails that use God to guilt people into sending out emails to all of their friends. This is all just my honest opinion.
  
Date: 8/6/2009 2:09:00 PM  From Authorid: 64365    Okay obviously is ouch... that was supposed to be Galations 6 verse 7  
Date: 8/6/2009 3:06:00 PM  From Authorid: 29928    Well, this does cause one to ponder..the God that I know and love is all loving and mercifull..thank God, or He would trounce on me too! Good post. Hugs, Pammie  
Date: 8/6/2009 4:02:00 PM  From Authorid: 63047    This is interesting, but I don't necessarily agree with the fact that it was God that caused all of it. I do believe in God, but honestly, do you know how many people out there denouce God and still live peaceful lives? Besides, I am pretty sure that Bon Scott was singing "Highway To Hell" about having a good time with his friends and living his life how he wanted to. He wasn't bashing God or worshipping Satan or anything like that. And in the end, it was his drinking problem that finally got him.  
Date: 8/6/2009 4:05:00 PM  From Authorid: 63047    One more thing: following the logic of this post, Brian Johnson should have died by now for singing "Hell's Bells" but he's still alive and kicking.  
Date: 8/6/2009 4:38:00 PM  From Authorid: 19682    These were all very interesting. I remember John Lennon making that comment in the late sixties and all radio stations were encourcaged to burn or destroy any Beatle records. If not that to not play them. It all blew over.

The others are creepy. Especially the trunk one with no broken eggs.
  
Date: 8/6/2009 5:06:00 PM  From Authorid: 31531    I like Nani answer.I think God has better things to do then end peoples lives in such ways.Thanks for posting. >> HUGS >>  
Date: 8/6/2009 5:18:00 PM  From Authorid: 15070    I was recently sent this in an email. It is something to ponder. Thank you, Frosty Angel   
Date: 8/6/2009 7:59:00 PM  From Authorid: 14314    Wow!!!  
Date: 8/6/2009 8:12:00 PM  From Authorid: 64604    so this is your God "sticking it to them" for not believing in what the Bible says his teachings are? Hmm.. sounds a little bit like this one guy who burned a bunch of Slavs and Jews in gas ovens. It's email forwards like this that do the opposite then what they are intended for.  
Date: 8/7/2009 4:25:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    Interestingly, none of these people believed in Zeus either...  
Date: 8/7/2009 5:48:00 AM  From Authorid: 63241    I read an e-mail much similar to this one many months ago. My thoughts about it are still the same. The Bible is filled with many martyrs who suffered terrible deaths. In my lifetime I've known many loving & compassionate people who have gone through terrible illnesses, accidents and tragedies but yet didn't "deserve" it (if that's what the message is here).

Nobody knows the mind of God.
  
Date: 8/7/2009 11:01:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    God Has His Hand in ALL Things, including not "killing" the people who mock Him until His Plan So Deigns.

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/7/2009 11:27:00 AM  From Authorid: 62118    This is sick. God sent a gunman after Lennon?
I suppose by your logic 9/11 is Allah's way of getting back at the Americans?
  
Date: 8/7/2009 5:33:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61933    I didn't say that this is my opinion it's the idea. Good points have been made about God from this about making him appear the bad guy. I had no intention of making it appear this way. Perception Perceived is Achievement Achieved.

In my thoughts it just showed that, God is loving, however he IS GOD, people call the death of a young person "untimely" Any tragic death is untimely. Shooting, suicide, etc.

How sad these examples are when these comments have been made against God, so soon before their time has come.

{{hugs}}
  
Date: 8/7/2009 10:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    Because everyone whos ever been murdered or killed has mocked God.  
Date: 8/8/2009 9:37:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    No. People who are killed and murdered had their death Predetermined By God long before they got killed or murdered. That they got killed or murdered via another's decision (free will) to murder was also long ago Known By God. Had those murderers had a change of heart (free will) not to commit murder, would not have resulted in those people not being dead. In other words, had Hinkley decided not to kill John Lennon, there is not one person in this world who could GUARANTEE that Lennon wouldn't have died at the second he did by some other means: something falling on him from a window above, an errant wheel flying off a delivery truck, a stroke, Yoko choking him, etc. His death was Predetermined By God regardless of the means.

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/8/2009 9:46:00 AM  From Authorid: 16671    Have you people forgot that this is the religion section and NOT the debate section?? I've seen this email too and the whole point of it is, when its our time to go, its our time to go, these people that did mock God, I feel for them for dying and not being with God for eternity. If ya'll want to debate this authors post, make one like it and stick it in the right section. This section is to post about ones religion, reguardless of what religion it is. I'll not debate my opinion with ya'll in this section, and I feel that the author needs to not debate with you people either.  
Date: 8/8/2009 10:23:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 61933    THANK YOU FIRSTBORN! You have hit it on the head {{hugs}}  
Date: 8/8/2009 11:59:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    Deb, write a book.  
Date: 8/10/2009 8:33:00 AM  From Authorid: 30093    I see no debate. I see people speaking their mind about a post posted on a discussion website. Also known was "discussing".  
Date: 8/10/2009 4:10:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    Deb, I don’t think your position holds up, specifically, the idea that free will is compatible with God’s having predetermined everything. You might want to rethink.  
Date: 8/11/2009 4:10:00 AM  From Authorid: 62118    Does anything Deb say holds up?  
Date: 8/11/2009 7:44:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Nananki, this is posted in the religious section, in case you didn't notice when you first read it and in case you didn't notice when FB pointed it out. When someone makes a post in this section, this is the guideline which appears prior to the story box:

"Our purpose for the religious section is to provide a forum so you can share your religious beliefs and/or the positive effects your experiences has had in your daily life...Posts or comments that disrespect, degrade or insult other religions or beliefs will be deleted at the Admins discretion.... For those that wish to 'argue' their religious ideas, we have provided a debate section for you to post in....Thank you.."

Just a few months ago, a new member posted a story in the religious section asking if anyone had had ever heard God Talking to them. DP, do you remember your responses there? Of course, you can't go looking for it because it all got deleted, story and comments. I attempted to take your comments and make a post with my responses to them in the debate section, but that got deleted. And that poster? Does anyone here even know what happened to her? After being told she could only be crazy, do you suppose she ever came back to this site? God Only Knows.

As far as you not understanding "free will" DP, that is a subject which we've discussed several times, in debate.
But since you apparently haven't been given a good memory by God, despite hundreds of comment by me on the subject, I'll recap: Predetermined by God is not inconsistent with one using their free will. Because God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, (thus the Predeterminator of All), free will in humans applies to the decisions people make in relation to their belief -- OR NOT -- in God. If Hinkley believed in God AND felt doubtful, unsure, freaked out, worried, trapped, or any other number of emotions over his plan to murder John Lennon, then the outcome may have been that he decided not to murder. God Would Have Already Known that that was going to happen and thus, with the Predetermined Day of Death for John Lennon, have a Predetermined Method for which that Death to Occur.

I honestly think your problem in understanding this concept is, as again gone over and over in debate posts, you don't quite understand the concept of ALL (aka "Omni".

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/11/2009 9:10:00 AM  From Authorid: 30093    I see no comments of mine that disrespect, degrad,e or insult her religious beliefs. In fact since my "religious belief"for lack of a better word, seeing as there is no atheist section) is atheism then I think my comments are equally as welcome as any praising this post. Especially considering a few Christians also questioned the validity of the claims made here.  
Date: 8/11/2009 9:11:00 AM  From Authorid: 30093    Also you seem to have an incredibly difficult time reading, so I'll help you out here: My name is Nanaki. You've seen my name typed here regularly for 8.5 years. You know my name, yet you still insist on spelling it wrong for some strange reason. N-a-n-a-k-i. Does that make it easier for you?  
Date: 8/11/2009 10:14:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Forgive me. My mistake. Just curious: Is Nanaki your given name?

I directed that portion of my comment at you as you seemed to believe this was a discussion post, which it is not. For whatever reasons, the rules of this site are that the stories posted in religious/religion not to disrespect a religion, which is defined as a belief system. Isn't your atheism a belief system? Feel free to make posts in the religion section about your beliefs. I would expect that the rules of this site would be enforced for you just as the should be for others . . . LOL.

You also seem to think that you were not disrespectful, yet asked me to rectify what you perceived as me being disrespectful to you (which I did right off up there). Do you hold that standard for yourself? It's God (note capitalization) . . .

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/11/2009 11:07:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    As I recall, the poster in question wasn’t hearing voices (which is generally regarded as a good thing). In any case, I think it’s you who doesn’t understand “free will” (either that or you’re using a highly unorthodox definition). If an event is predetermined, then it will necessarily happen. If an event is subject to my free will, then it will not necessarily happen. Thus, for something to be both predetermined and subject to free will (as free will is commonly understood) is contradictory.

It does not follow from God’s being omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient that free will in humans applies to only one set of decisions they make (even this concept itself is quite bizarre). You are quite simply incorrect here.

Take the example you use of Hinkley’s shooting of Lennon. God’s omnipresence has no bearing on whether Hinkley will shoot Lennon, since God’s omnipresence is a simple metaphysical fact of the universe. God’s omnipotence does have a bearing on Hinkley’s decision to shoot Lennon, since God has the power to make Hinkley change his mind. In order for Hinkley to have free will here, God cannot use his power to make Hinkley decide one way or another. God’s omnipotence allows God to know in advance what will happen, regardless of whether he influences Hinkley’s decision or not. The mistake you seem to be making, is taking the fact that God knows what Hinkley will do, and moving from this to the notion that Hinkley’s actions are thus “predetermined” when this is not necessarily the case. Just because I know that Juliet will choose to kill herself, does not mean that Juliet’s death was “predetermined” such that there was nothing Juliet could have done to avoid dying the way she did.
  
Date: 8/11/2009 11:20:00 AM  From Authorid: 30093    My given name is Daniel, and you may call me that if you're more comfortable with it. This is a discussion otherwise replies would be disabled. If you think making a reply that is antithetic to the poster's beliefs automatically constitutes disrespect then you're wrong. Simple as that. If I had meant offense I would have made offense. I didn't. I merely said "Which god was this?" There are thousands of gods, and this one struck me as a bit different from what Christians are usually portraying theirs as. It was a humorous remark that meant no disrespect, and I don't think Frosty Angel was disrespected by it.  
Date: 8/11/2009 12:21:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Here's a big hint as to your question and whether or not it could be considered disrespectful to you Nanaki: Read the title of the post and the post itself. And my question as to disrespect is not directed at the author, but at God Himself (you know, the one being referred to in the post).

DP, again, your recollection fails you. But again, "poof" the magic drag on, dragged on that post and it is gone, thus denying you the opportunity to refresh your memory.

My definition of "free will" is not an unorthodox one. Free will is merely the decision making capability in humans. Humans decide whether to believe in God or not. Decisions made by those exercising their free will in believing in God will use that in the basis of their decision. Decisions made by those exercising their free will in not believing in God will use that in the basis of their decisions. That one doesn't believe in God -- and therefore doesn't integrate how their decisions may impact their relationship with God -- is not the equivalent of saying that those people are making decisions that are 1) Godless; 2) unknown by God; and/or 3) against God's Will.

Predetermined means ascertained in advance. Advance of what? Beforehand? What is beforehand to even a "metaphysical" Omnipresent One? God Knows in advance of what is in the present to humans, including that they will change their minds. How does that Predetermined Knowledge that God Has that a human will change their mind effect a human changing their mind?

So, God, Being Omnipotent could do something out of the ordinary to stop a person from murdering? You mean like Talking to them?

If it was within God's Plan that Lennon not die on that day, then, yes, He Would Have Used whatever it took to stop Chapman (my mistake in referring to Hinkley as Lennon's murderer -- wrong celebrity association there) from murdering Lennon. As I have been saying all along, this was Lennon's day to die, regardless of how it occurred. My take on Chapman is that if he was a believer at the time of the murder, his free will, while believing in God, didn't care what consequences God May Have in store for him for so murdering. If he was not a believer in God, then such consequences wouldn't enter into his decision making process (free will) and he acted on his decision based on believing in the decision as a liberty of his will.

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/11/2009 4:08:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    Predetermined does not mean ascertained in advance. It means determined in advance, and to be determined and to be ascertained are not the same thing.

God’s having a “plan” may be compatible with free will if one assumes that God’s plan is not all-encompassing. If God gives me the choice to shoot Lennon, then my shooting Lennon was not part of God’s plan, it was a consequence of it (likewise my not shooting Lennon). Thus it would be accurate to say “It was God’s plan that Lennon might die” rather than “it was God’s plan that Lennon be shot”. If I give you a choice, and you have free will, I do not determine what you choose, even though I know beforehand what decision you will make.
  
Date: 8/12/2009 8:43:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Uh, you need to crack open your dictionary, DP.

"Ascertain" is indeed a given definition for "determine". Further, though I didn't put it in quotes (mea culpa for the third time in this post already!) I used the dictionary meaning for "predetermined" in saying what it means! Oh, but since it wasn't properly ascribed to Webster's, you claim I am wrong . . . so there, I just fixed it. I was wrong not to quote the dictionary meaning of "predetermined", for you and because I didn't, I am sorry that that led you to saying something false. Yes, it is all my fault that you were wrong (just like you using Hinkley's name also). Forgive me . . .

To ascertain (def. "find out by examination" something is to KNOW about it. To Know something in advance of it happening is to be Omniscient. To Know what someone is FEELING at a particular time, the urge to murder, e.g., is to be Omnipresent. To Know that someone -- at a later time -- had those feelings subside and no longer has an urge to murder, is to be Omnipresent. To Know that the object of the murderous intent is going to die on a particular day is Omniscient. To know that the object of the murderous intent is not going to be murdered is Omniscient. To MAKE a delivery truck's tire wrench off and fly as a projectile into that person's face, killing him instantly, is Omnipotent. Where in any of that did that Omni make the decision for the someone with the murderous intent? Thinking about the murderous intent and deciding to act upon it or not is a PROCESS, even if the process takes 2 seconds. To Know the outcome of the process beforehand, i.e., to have that "ascertained in advance" (the dictionary meaning of Predetermined) is not the same as making the decision about that particular process. I really think that you are stuck with the idea that "determine" in this instance is being used to mean "to decide" vs. "to ascertain", and that is completely evident in your last sentence.

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/12/2009 9:49:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    Ah Deb, context, context, context! (No wonder we have so much difficulty arguing over the definition of marriage.)As I’ve explained many a time in the past, many words have multiple definitions and which definition we are using depends upon the context in which the word is used.

So, (using dictionary.com) for “to ascertain” we get:

1. “to find out definitely; learn with certainty or assurance; DETERMINE: to ascertain the facts.”

And for “to determine” we get:

2. to conclude or ASCERTAIN, as after reasoning, observation, etc.

From this (or something near enough, depending on what dictionary you use) you have incorrectly equated the two verbs. To ascertain can be to determine and to determine can be to ascertain, but not in the present context of the free will debate.

Consider the fourth definition given for determine at dictionary.com:

4. to cause, affect, or control; fix or decide causally

So, to determine can refer to a reasoning process, whereby conclusions are reached after reasoning or observation etc. But it can also refer to a causal process, whereby events are decided, caused, fixed. If you look up “predetermine” you will see that the definitions are much closer to the fourth definition given above. Each of the three definitions echo the fourth definition of “determine” and not the second.
(For example: 1. to settle or decide in advance, 2. to ordain in advance; predestine: She believed that God had predetermined her sorrow. ((a rather appropriate example)) )

So, yes, to ascertain something is to come to have knowledge (we might say that this is rather inaccurate when referring to God, since God does not “come” to know about anything, since he has always known everything.) And yes, to know that something will happen before it happens is presumably entailed by omniscience. To know what someone is feeling is not to be omnipresent, omnipresence may be a necessary condition (i.e. it may be necessary to be omnipresent to be omniscient), but it refers to God’s (metaphysical) presence, not to what God knows.
  
Date: 8/12/2009 9:52:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    As far as God using its omnipotence to cause the death of a person, that would lead one down the road of wondering about God’s nature and motives for interfering in such a way and towards the problem of evil.  
Date: 8/12/2009 12:06:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Oh, dear. Because DP says so. That is the only valid reason for anything.

For someone who doesn't believe in God you sure have definitive ideas about Him, don't you?

Just one quick question: Who first used the word "Predetermined" in this post? Aah. But we must use YOUR idea of what I meant, not mine. Oh, to just bow down to your ALL KNOWINGNESS and not God's and wouldn't you just be happy then?

Not one thing you wrote regarding definitions refutes one thing I have said here. Nothing. I used the dictionary meaning of "Predetermined" when I first said "to ascertain beforehand". Oh, but I couldn't have possibly meant "ascertain" as in "determine" there, right! Because, again, a quick question: Who first used the word "ascertain" in this post?

Oh, I know, I am just too stupid to know (ascertain) what meaning of the words I use are supposed to be; I have to wait for the ALL GREAT ONE, DP, to come and tell me that I am speaking out of context of the context I brought up in the first place. Ah, but how are you to understand the order of the process when the processing is just out of whack . . .

We've debated your whole problem of evil (with even that as the title!) fairly recently at this site, DP. Is your memory in process or not?

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/12/2009 12:40:00 PM  From Authorid: 30093    Oh my. That's not a defensive sarcasm laden passive agressive post at all. I think she's serious. Looks like you've won, DP.  
Date: 8/12/2009 1:24:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Won what? Surely not a debate since, as you said right up there^^^ "I see no debate."

Or maybe you mean he won the right to tell me what my words mean? And who could confer such a right on him? Just himself or you since neither of you believe in God. Although as my memory serves me correct, it was a debate post wondering if atheism could be considered a belief system in which you "confessed" what you really are is agnostic . . . But what else was I to expect from you in this post? Consistency?

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/12/2009 2:13:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    My usage of terms (such as omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, predetermination and free will) are in line with the terms as they are used by theologians and philosophers of religion (and I would argue more accurately reflective of the common usage than the meanings you wish to ascribe to them).

To answer your question, it was you that first used the term “predetermined” when you said “People who are killed and murdered had their death Predetermined By God long before they got killed or murdered” and then “His death was Predetermined By God regardless of the means. If by this, what you were saying is simply that God knew what would happen before it happened, then you probably should have chosen a different verb, since to predetermine has very definite causal connotations. It is very different to say that God knew X would happen, and that God caused X to happen.

Predetermination, as a religious concept, carries causal connotations. If you were not aware of this previously, you are now, and can make a better and less misleading choice of verbs in the future. You’re welcome.
  
Date: 8/12/2009 2:15:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    Out of interest, do you have an online link to the specific definition of “predetermined” you are using? You mentioned Webster’s but as far as I can see http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predetermine makes no mention of the verb “to ascertain” in its definition.  
Date: 8/12/2009 4:08:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    So the theologians and philosophers are telling me how I should use my words, and not you? Oh, Thank God! Now I feel so much better.

The problem with your analysis is that you are cross contaminating what you are comparing: You say, "It is very different to say that God knew X would happen, and that God caused X to happen." Our "discussion" up to now has been more along the lines of "It is very different to say that God knew X would happen, and that God Decided X was to happen".

Where have I said that God Does not cause X to happen? I think I've been quite consistent in stating that God Is ALL. If "X" represents "a person making a decision to act on their murderous feeling AND murder", the exercise of their free will in believing in God means they are willing to own up to what they decided, when they eventually stand in Judgment Before Him. Since someone who believes in God presumably believes murder is a sin and therefore, an act which would run counter to God's Will, how could a person justify murdering other than to say to Him, "I allowed my will to overcome Your Will, Father. For if You Needed this person dead that day, You Are Surely Quite Capable of Making That Happen" (note the flying wheel scenario). Did His Decision in granting them the exercise of their free will (to believe in Him) cause them to make the decision they made? (I say YES.)

Let's look at it from the point of view of someone who exercises their free will by not believing in God. So the "X" is still (no cross contaminating) representing "a person making a decision to act on their murderous feeling AND murder", the exercise of their free will in not believing in God means they have no after death justification to even think about. Did His Decision in granting them the exercise of their free will (to not believe in Him) cause them to make the decision they made? (I say YES.)

But we're not done. Let's compare the X's when "X" represents "a person who feels like murdering but decides not to". The exercise of their free will in believing in God means they are willing to own up to what they decided, when they eventually stand in Judgment Before Him. Since someone who believes in God presumably understands that having a feeling is a God-Given sensation, when standing in Judgment should Thank God for the feeling, and for giving the person the strength to let His Will Be Done with regard to the feeling. Did His Decision in granting them the exercise of their free will (to believe in Him) cause them to make the decision they made? (I say YES.)

So finally we come to the X representing (as immediately above) "a person who feels like murdering but decides not to" who exercises their free will in not believing in God which means, again, that they have no after death justification to even think about. Did His Decision in granting them the exercise of their free will (to not believe in Him) cause them to make the decision they made? (Surprise, surprise, I say YES once more).

In any one of these four scenarios, DP, did God Decide what was going to happen? Yes, He Knew what was going to happen, but ALL He
Decided was to give humans the free will to believe in Him or not, and you make and own your own decisions based on THAT DECISION.

Now I fully disclose that I am using my own ideas (my independent thinking mind) as to the meaning of what I say and not that of theologians and philosophers. They haven't exactly garnered a consensus of agreement in their teachings over the last couple of thousands of years, now have they?

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/12/2009 5:23:00 PM  From Authorid: 44960    Comment #50!! Just Couldn't Resist!! *Spirit*  
Date: 8/12/2009 6:03:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    Well, as far as I can see, there are roughly three ways you could use words. You could use the “layman” definition, you could use a “technical” or “academic” definition (in this case there’s not much difference between the two.) Or you could make up your own or decide to use archaic meanings of words, or meanings which are not implied by the context of the discussion. This seems to have been the general approach you are going for here.

If you say that God’s decision to grant a person free will, caused them to make a specific decision (rather than that it caused them to make *a* decision), then you destroy the notion of free will. My decision is not my decision if God decided what I would “decide”. If you want to salvage free will, you could argue that God caused my decision, but did not determine the content of that decision (i.e. God determined THAT I would choose, but did not determine WHAT I would choose).

You say: “ALL He
Decided was to give humans the free will to believe in Him or not, and you make and own your own decisions based on THAT DECISION.” Which strikes me as highly bizarre, as though all of our decisions are coloured by our belief (or lack of belief) in God.

Let’s say I wake up tomorrow and I have the choice of wearing a red t-shirt or wearing a blue t-shirt. What you seem to be saying is that the decision I make will be based upon my decision to believe or not believe that God exists. (let’s leave aside the problems I have with the notion that one can “decide” to believe something.)

So, am I exercising my free will in choosing which t-shirt to wear? If I am, how must this decision be determined based upon my belief or lack of belief in God?

  
Date: 8/13/2009 10:24:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Oh, my, I have to say I'm sorry once again for not answering your question regarding my dictionary. It is my ragtag Webster's sitting in the drawer to the left of me as I sit hit and type. In fact, I just turned to it to look up how to spell "drawer" as I was unsure of the spelling. Not really sure there is an internet address where you could view all that, and if there were, I wouldn't allow it to stay connected.

So, the notion of free will I am putting forward -- accumulated by all three aspects of attaining definitions which you've enumerated -- you feel has been salvaged (given some use) by my explanation above. You, however, just can't buy into it (100%), especially given the non-consequential decisions people make every day such as which color shirt to wear. So, here, I will outline the process for you as in my previous comment in which each scenario X represents a young man of Irish descent, born with orange colored hair:

The person believes in God. The person is feeling conflicted about which t-shirt to wear, blue or red. The person holds up the blue t-shirt as he looks in the mirror, and then the red one. The person decides on the blue one as his mind is thinking, "God, why did you have to make me a ginger? I never look good in red."

The person does not believe in God. The person is feeling conflicted about which t-shirt to wear, blue or red. The person holds up the blue t-shirt as he looks in the mirror, and then the red one. The person decides on the blue one as his mind is thinking, "Orange and red just don't go. Blue and orange are complimentary colors. I'm definitely wearing blue."

The person believes in God. The person is feeling conflicted about which t-shirt to wear, blue or red. The person holds up the blue t-shirt as he looks in the mirror, and then the red one. The person decides on the red one as his mind is thinking, "God, Thank you for this day and for the clothes I have to put on. I feel like wearing red today!"

The person does not believe in God. The person is feeling conflicted about which t-shirt to wear, blue or red. The person holds up the blue t-shirt as he looks in the mirror, and then the red one. The person decides on the red one as his mind is thinking, "I don't care that this clashes. I feel like wearing red today!"

And please, lets not put aside your idea about whether one decides on what to believe. Please explain how you arrived in your position as an atheist if you didn't decide what to believe?

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/13/2009 11:17:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    (Well, could you point me towards an online definition which defines “predetermined” in terms of knowledge ((i.e. in terms of “ascertaining”)?)

I don’t know what you mean by “non-consequential” decisions. If I decide to wear a blue shirt, for example, that is going to have plenty of consequences (technically, it’s probably going to have an infinite number of consequences). As far as I can see, every decision we make has consequences of one sort or another.

Your description of the read-headed Irishman (thanks for resorting to the stereotype btw! ) seems inaccurate to me. In the first example, the man is thinking two things: 1. That he does not look good in red. 2. Wondering why God chose to give him red hair. In the second case, the man is thinking three things. 1. That orange and red don’t go, 2. that blue and orange are complimentary, and 3. that he will wear blue (because of 1 and 2). In BOTH cases however, God has nothing to do with the decision which is reached. A thought about God is present in the first case, but it does not affect the decision to wear blue, since that decision is caused by the judgment that blue goes better with orange, which is virtually identical to the reasoning process we find in the second case.

Similarly, in the third and fourth cases, the decision to wear red has nothing to do with the thoughts about God. The believer decides “I feel like wearing red today!” and the nonbeliever decides exactly the same thing.
  
Date: 8/13/2009 11:18:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    RE: “deciding” to believe. Try to make yourself believe, really believe, that centaurs exist. See if you can decide to believe that.  
Date: 8/13/2009 11:29:00 AM  From Authorid: 62118    "God Would Have Already Known that that was going to happen and thus, with the Predetermined Day of Death for John Lennon, have a Predetermined Method for which that Death to Occur."

So if 9/11 terrorist attack didn't happen God would find another way to off some 3,000 people? Maybe they all die from natural causes? All one the same day.. lol.
By your logic medical science doesn't save lives as death is predetermined and unavoidable.
  
Date: 8/13/2009 11:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Oh, excuse me, once again. The way you had worded your example of shirts I was under the impression that it was a menial decision you were addressing.

Nonetheless, as to the massively consequential decision as to wear a blue t-shirt or a red t-shirt, how can you definitely say that in the first instance of the God believing, blue deciding person that God did not have anything to do with his decision?

Because, in the second instance of the non-believer, you come up with three things the man is thinking but won't give the first guy credit for thinking three things. So while you will admit that the first thought and the second thought of this second man's thinking led to the third thought, you won't extend that same courtesy of this thought and that thought of the first man's thinking as leading to the third thought. Not very consistent in your PROCESS there, DP, and you've wholly misstated the thought process of the first guy, to boot. (But that latter technique isn't inconsistent in your MO.)

As far as the two chaps in the third and fourth scenarios, so what if they both decided that they were wearing red today! Their decisions were the process of their thinking. Are you really that surprised to see the two of them reach the same decision even though they have a different set of beliefs of God?

I believe that centaurs could have possibly existed. I don't believe they exist today. I decided the former because I am open minded as to what God may have had going on on this world thousands (pre-flood days) of years ago. I decided the latter because there has been no showing of such a creature in this day and age.

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/13/2009 11:56:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Bingo!, RT'd.

You've never heard of a gas leak pumping noxious air into a building and people being overcome by them? Well, God Has!

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/13/2009 12:26:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    So what does self-preservation serve in humans/animals?
Your "theory" is ridiculous, and completely untestable.
  
Date: 8/13/2009 12:34:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    In fact, why does God oppose murder if you claim murder is a tool of God?
Lets release all the criminals, they're just working for God right?
  
Date: 8/13/2009 2:17:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    I can say that God had nothing to do with the decision in the first case because, as you presented it, the motivation for the decision to wear blue was that the person did not believe that red and orange go together. This belief is based upon the subject’s visual perception of the two colours. Whether God created the person with red hair or not is irrelevant.

In the second case, the logical connection between the first two thoughts and the decision is obvious. My aesthetic opinion of colours is going to influence the colours I choose to wear. You simply do not show where the logical connection is in the first case, between the God-related thought, and the subsequent decision. What was it about the first man’s opinion that God had given him orange hair, that led him to choose to wear the blue shirt?
  
Date: 8/13/2009 2:19:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    Also, I asked you to see whether you could decide to believe in centaurs. I assumed you do not believe centaurs exist. Neither do I. What I am unable to do is to decide to believe that centaurs exist. Can you make yourself believe in centaurs?  
Date: 8/14/2009 8:36:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    "So what does self-preservation serve in humans/animals?" God's Plan.

"Your "theory" is ridiculous, and completely untestable." Freedom of Speech (on your part as well as mine).

"In fact, why does God oppose murder if you claim murder is a tool of God?" God's Will.

Lets release all the criminals, they're just working for God right? I believe in human judgment for the living and God's Judgment once they die.

God Bless.
  
Date: 8/14/2009 8:44:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    ROTFLMAO

Of course you find whether God Created the Irishman with ORANGE hair irrelevant, since you consider God irrelevant to Creation altogether!

LMAO

I've answered your question on centaurs. Go read again and you'll see where I gave Credit To God for ALL Creation. But you'll find that irrelevant also, if you're consistent. So go ahead and post another comment in this religious post referencing God and the Bible and expect that it is relevant . . .

God Bless.

  
Date: 8/14/2009 9:01:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    If you care to pick yourself up off the floor and actually read what I read, you might not find the holes in your argument so amusing.

The fact which is relevant to the first case, as you have described it, is the fact that the man has orange hair. It is not relevant how he came to have orange hair. The aesthetic impact of orange and red is identical regardless of whether the man has come to have orange hair in virtue of his genetics and the physical universe alone, or whether God caused him to have orange hair (or whether the man had dyed it orange, etc. etc.)

And no, you didn’t answer my question on centaurs. I asked whether you could decide to believe in them. All you said in response was that you believe they could have existed, but that you don’t believe they currently exist, then gave the reasons why you believe both of these propositions. But, as I said above, I did not ask you whether you do believe that they exist, but whether you could make yourself believe that they exist, whether you could decide to believe in centaurs.
  
Date: 8/14/2009 4:17:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    God's Plan, God's Will.. Well that was thought provoking.  

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